Team Chat, April 24, 2014
Topic: Contributor recognition, .org sites
Agenda: Updates re activity in this area.
- Profiles
- Survey
- Theme directory Featured page
- Other? Add it in comments.
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Jen Mylo
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Jen Mylo
Contributor Experience Survey
It’s short, and none of the questions are mandatory. Please post, tweet, tell your co-contributors/community members via any/all communication methods. Thanks. Here’s the link: http://wordpressdotorg.polldaddy.com/s/wordpress-contributor-experience-poll
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Michael Beil
This is great!
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Jen Mylo
Meetup.com Update — April 24, 2014
Good news on the meetup.com front: the personnel change that had us in flux has turned out to be a good thing. Now that Laura at Meetup.com is handling the chapter program, she has agreed to let us do existing group roll-ins monthly rather than quarterly. This is great news, because the once-every-3-months thing was a pain in butt logistically, and sometimes meant that dues came up for renewal before the next roll-in (though meetup.com has generally been good about prioritizing people in that situation). With this new schedule, we can keep forward momentum going a lot easier from the moment someone applies to join the program.
Emails were sent from meetup.com to everyone on the current quarterly roll-in list. So far in this round, these meetup groups have been added to the WordPress account:
These groups were sent the opt-in form at the same time by meetup.com on 4/21 but have not yet responded.
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Chase Livingston
Great news!
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Philip Arthur Moore
Heads up that Hanoi has responded (just sent it in today). Thanks so much for the updates on this Jen.
Jen Mylo
GSoC Students Accepted
I’m very pleased to announce this year’s cohort of Google Summer of Code students. We’ll be working with 5 students for the summer, spanning several areas of the project. Please join me in congratulating the following students on their acceptance into the program:
- Arian Allenson M. Valdez (secretmapper) — Working on GlotPress UI and profiles with Yoav Farhi and Marko Heijnen as mentors
- Gautam Gupta (gautamgupta) — Working on bbPress improvements with John James Jacoby and Stephen Edgar as mentors
- Janneke Van Dorpe (avryl) — Working on front-end editing/content blocks with Gregory Cornelius and Aaron Jorbin as mentors
- Nick Halsey (celloexpressions) — Working on adding custom menus to the customizer with Erick Hitter and Konstantin Obenland as mentors
- Varun Agrawal (VarunAgw) — Working on SupportPress as a plugin with Ian Dunn, Aaron Campbell, and Alex Mills as mentors
Once we’ve had a meeting with each of the students and their mentoring teams, a revised scope will be published so the community can check out the proposed projects. Each student will post weekly updates to an appropriate team blog to keep everyone up to date and to get feedback:
- Janneke and Nick will post their updates on /core
- Varun will post updates here on /community
- Secretmapper will post updates to http://blog.glotpress.org/
- Gautam will post updates to http://bbpdevel.wordpress.com/
We’ll set up some livestreamed prototype demos at midterm so everyone can see the projects in action. In the meantime, congratulations to all the students!
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Mel Choyce
Nick Halsey (celloexpressions) — Working on adding custom menus to the customizer with Erick Hitter and Konstantin Obenland as mentors
<3 <3 <3 So excited <3 <3 <3
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Amy Hendrix (sabreuse)
Excellent! Congratulations, everyone!
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Aaron D. Campbell
Congrats everyone.
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Brandon Kraft
Awesome folks with awesome projects. Looking forward to following along!
Slava UA
> Working on SupportPress as a plugin
Awesome! Let the fun begins 
Rouven Hurling
“Working on SupportPress as a plugin”
looked into SupportPress and it looks great. would love to help with it
Andy McIlwain
Yay! Happy to see stuff moving forward with SupportPress.
Andrea Middleton
Hurray and welcome!
Jen Mylo
Emails have been sent to all student/mentor teams outlining what they need to do during the community bonding period, and asking them to set up a hangout with me by May 6th so that we can review their revised scope and go over the program milestones, expectations, and processes for the summer.
Jen Mylo
Meetup.com Status Update
The quarterly roll-in is a little behind. For some reason we didn’t get confirmation of our payment until April 8 (about a week later than expected), and the person who does the roll-ins of existing groups hasn’t been in touch (normally that happens immediately upon payment of the quarterly bill). I contacted that person and the person who runs the chapter program yesterday expressing my nervousness about the timing, especially since a couple of the groups joining the program had expiring dues and were marked in red on the spreadsheet. I’ll do everything I can to make sure no group has $$ trouble because of this delay.
There are 18 existing meetups waiting to be rolled in (some were from the last time who filled in the application so close to the end that they didn’t make it in that round). There are about half a dozen new meetup (no existing group) applications in process.
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Jen Mylo
Heard back, the person who was managing the chapter program is moving to a new role, and the person who used to handle the roll-ins is taking that job, so there’s a little flux over there. I’ve been assured that our roll-ins will be addressed on Monday. I reiterated my concern about the couple that had expiring dues.
Jen Mylo
Meetup Orientation Hangouts Schedule
We’ll try a few different topics and time slots over the next couple of weeks to see what works best.
For organizers of existing groups who want to join the chapter account (or have questions because they’re not sure):
- Wednesday, April 23, 2014 at 23:00 UTC (4pm Pacific, 7pm Eastern) Event page
For people who want to start a new group on the chapter account:
- Tuesday, April 29, 2014 at 17:00 UTC (10am Pacific, 1pm Eastern) Event page
Jen Mylo
Putting More Community in WCSF
Back in December, I proposed that instead of trying to recreate the 2012 community summit event, we try something different, and combine it with the official annual conference, WordCamp San Francisco (WCSF), for a variety of reasons (rather than restate those reasons now, I suggest re-reading that post). For the most part, people seemed to like the idea (as seen in comments), but there were a few people who did not like the idea, citing various concerns, so I tabled the discussion rather than start a big debate right before the holidays. Un-tabling!
The community summit in 2012 was an experiment on my part as to what an annual event could look like that centered on discussions rather than lectures (which fill the annual WCSF program). There were a lot of positive aspects to the event, in line with what was expected. However, there were some negative effects as well:
- It was not intended to split the community into having to choose which annual event they attended, but that was an unexpected —and undesirable — outcome.
- The invite-only-based-on-somewhat-subjective-factors and private nature of the event, while kind of awesome for those who were there and necessary given some of the contentious problems in the community at that time, was non-open and alienating to those who weren’t invited, the antithesis of the WordPress project’s stated values. ← This one’s really, really important.
- Quite a number of people who normally went to WCSF did not go after going to the summit due to the need to limit the number of trips they took.
To that end, I’m proposing that instead of organizing another retreat-based, invite-only event at a separate time/place than the annual conference, we expand the annual conference to be more than just lectures. As I handed the WCSF planning mantle off to Andrea Middleton in 2012, I’ve been talking with her and Matt Mullenweg about how we could improve the WCSF event to incorporate some of the good things from the 2012 summit to make WCSF a true annual community event. Here’s the proposal:
- Instead of doing a full contributor day at the Automattic office as we have in the past, do a contributor series in the downstairs room at Mission Bay on the 2nd programmed day (Sunday) while blogger-centric content is on stage upstairs (with a break for all to see Matt do SOTW).
- Add an open source project community conversations day in addition to the lecture-driven days. Have a separate registration like with previous contributor days and use advance communication to make it clear this is aimed at professionals/contributors rather than casual users, but don’t use an application process with rejections. This could be either before or after the programmed days, though am leaning toward after.
With these two changes, WCSF would be the same amount of time it has been for years — 3 days — but would have more interactivity built into those days for people involved with the project than we’ve had in the past.
In addition, I would have us set up an extra 2 days for contributor teams to work together and talk about their goals, and to talk to other teams. Needless to say, this would be optional, but anyone deemed necessary to the team should be able to attend regardless of finances via the scholarship program. This brings us to 5 days. Both Andrea and Matt were amenable to this plan for WCSF this year — knowing that whatever we do this year we will learn from and iterate on in the future — so I’d like to address the concerns raised by Siobhan and others.
- A week is too long, people will burn out. Yep, it’s a long time! We’re talking about 5 days, not 7, but even so, it is more than a weekend (though people just interested in the csummit-style conversations, not the contributor team working days, would still be at only 3 days like always). That said, I surveyed 2 dozen other open source project and industry conferences, and 5 days was actually pretty average. Events like OSCON and SXSW lasting 5 days is an overwhelming week, to be sure, but in this case, since our formats would be shaken up every day or two, and the contributor days are basically chill co-working time, I think it will be manageable. When we used to do core team meetups, those were always a week. Coming to a 2-3 day event for people flying from very far away is also exhausting, so either way there’ll be some people who are less comfortable based on length of event. For the record, I get overwhelmed at events myself. I try to fake it, but ask Matt the number of times I’ve texted him from an event citing anxiety, or been caught reading a book on kindle for iphone in an afterparty corner. I’m not exempt from the burnout concern, and take it seriously. Also, people can always retreat away from the events as needed to take care of themselves (as long as it’s to take care of themselves, and not just because they’re hung over. )
- People coming in early will feel left out. Based on feedback, the idea would most likely be to do the unconference and contrib days after the regular Mission Bay event. No one would be turned away for the unconference, so that “not welcome” thing would not be an issue. For the contributor team days, by then we’d be getting to midweek, so it would be unlikely for a lot of extra people to still be hanging around town, but in any case, we can let each team decide who should be there for that.
- San Francisco is expensive. Yes, it truly is. The cost of SF lodging is high, but when compared to flights + airport transfers for two separate events, in most cases it’s a wash. In any case, most of the people concerned have employers foot the bill or would be eligible for a travel scholarship. The travel scholarships worked really well at the summit, and while yes, Tybee was cheap and I got us some great discounts there, we have the money to cover SF travel for those who need it.
- We can’t discuss issues with WordCamps/WCSF if it’s at WCSF because Andrea is the organizer. I think we can all be grownups, and I know that Andrea is always up for suggestions to make the program better.
- Using Automattic’s space is a conflict of interest. I don’t know if we’d even stick with that space for everything (renting a place with multiple rooms might be better), but I disagree with this idea. The Automattic space is used for open events all the time, and again, we’re all grownups. If we do use the space I personally guarantee that freedom of speech re Automattic would be there, no one needs to censor themselves. The people that censor themselves about that stuff do it wherever Matt is (it even happened at the summit, frankly), the room is not the real issue.
- Time Zone not EU-traveler friendly. Would I love it if the annual conference moved each year so the burden could be better distributed? Yes, and this could be a step toward that goal if it goes well. In the meantime, skewing US isn’t about ethnocentrism, it’s about numbers (majority) of contributors and businesses based in in the western hemisphere, and the 1-trip-vs-2-trips thing.
- USA is not visa-friendly for some countries. This is definitely true. I’m ready to start working now with people who were rejected in the past, as well as with the consulate to try and get a couple of key people here. But there will undoubtedly still be a couple who don’t make it for one reason or another. This sucks, and we’d work as hard as we could to get people here who should be. Moving the annual conference in the future to a new place each year (a la Drupalcon) would address this if we can make it happen in the future, but so does having other big events like WC Europe, which wound up functioning last year as kind of a counterpart to the SF event.
- Ignores the things team reps cited as summit must-haves at the post-wcsf dinner last year. Yep, some of them. I was one of the people who thought those things were must-haves, too (like a cozy location that enables random conversations, a size limit, etc), but when I sat down to think about the goals of the summit (and the overall project) and what was necessary vs what was enjoyable, I had a hard time justifying the tradeoffs. Anyone can organize an offsite retreat for an invite-only group, but unless it is just for a specific level of contributors, I don’t think it’s appropriate for the project to do so because otherwise the criteria for inclusion would necessarily be at least somewhat subjective.
At the very least, I think it is worth trying it this way; if it feels like there’s a still a big hole after the event, we can revisit. That said, this is what I think is right for the project, and where I think the energy should be focused right now re annual events. If someone else believes an invite-only retreat-style event is necessary for the project’s success, I wouldn’t stand in the way of someone else taking that on and pitching their ideas to Matt.
We can discuss this proposal in the team chat today.
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Andrea Middleton
I am excited about dropping the invite-only aspect, as suggested in this proposal. I understand why we did it in 2012, but I’d rather not see become regular practice, as it conflicts so deeply with core project values.
I’m in favor of this proposal; looking forward to discussing in team chat.
Valent Mustamin
Is there any chance you can provide a visa letter of invitation? It’s not a requirement, but i believe it can help smooth the way, especially about the specific plan regarding visiting
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Jen Mylo
Yes, we’ve always provided visa letters to those who have asked. Note that being a recognized contributor with an active profile on wordpress.org seems to carry weight when they evaluate the letters. Those that have been rejected have not had activity on wordpress.org profiles, so it looked like they weren’t really part of the project. Talk to @andreamiddleton about how to enter/update the past WC Indonesia information so it will show up there.
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Andrey "Rarst" Savchenko
This based on? First time I hear profiles mentioned as relevant, neither I was asked anything about it in my interview back then.
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Jen Mylo
Talking to the consulate about two other people. Being able to show involvement in the project vs it being a tourism trip. I don’t think that came up with you because you already had so many reasons based on your location and situation not to be granted a visa that it didn’t come down to that.
Bigger issues that the US consulate looks for are:
- Being employed by a company that looks legit, and that company having a professional looking website (it can be your own company, but have a legit looking website)
- Not sounding nervous or “looking shifty” (direct quote)
- Keep the story straight — don’t answer questions differently when re-asked
- Being married or engaged, or having family where you live is a plus (any deep connections to local people)
- Owning property is a plus
- Coming from a country that doesn’t have a history of visa holders jumping the visa to illegally emigrate
Given the situation in Ukraine right now, I don’t know if any visas are being granted, it’s something we can look into.
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Andrey "Rarst" Savchenko
Not even trying this year. Don’t have that “many” reasons, not working for a company and not married was all it took. :\
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Jen Mylo
I will plan on reaching out to the consulate next week to see which countries are current hot-buttons and what we can do as a project to get our contributors here.
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valentmustamin
Just realised that I haven’t got a single activity on my profile page. My bad. I will update it very soon. Thanks. This should help
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Joseph Karr O'Connor
Thanks very much for working through the issues and doing a great job of communicating with us. Those of us who are self-funding need to keep costs to a minimum so I appreciate that you are taking this into account. Getting to know other team members is essential for me so an extra 2 days to talk to other teams seems very good. I like where you are going with this.
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Jen Mylo
Any contributor who is paying for their own trip (rather than being employed by a WP-based company) should definitely apply for a travel scholarship when we get that far, no matter what the final format of the event. We’ll want to make sure you can attend.
Chris Lema
Great amount of communication on the topic. I look forward to hearing more details.
Jen Mylo
Discussion of this topic in today’s team chat: http://irclogs.wordpress.org/chanlog.php?channel=wordpress-getinvolved&day=2014-04-17&sort=asc#m18848
Jen Mylo
I have to reach out to embassies by country (rather one central office). I’ll start doing so, to see if there are things we can do to help improve the chances of visas being granted for contributors. So far, I will be reaching out to embassies in:
- Russia
- Ukraine
- India
- Indonesia
I’m not sure which countries people will need help with, so if you think you might have trouble getting a visa, please leave a reply on this comment and note your country so I can add it to my list.
Ipstenu (Mika Epstein)
Dropping invite only is great (less pre-work! shush, I’m lazy).
I also like the idea of having it at Automattic, because if someone is really interested in community, but finds out what we’re talking about isn’t QUITE what they’re into right now, there’s the ability to drift over to code-land if desired. Flexibility! Also we can run and grab coders when needed… I already know where I’ll be I guess!
Five days is long, but frankly five in one place at one time is WAY better than 3 and 3 in two places. Travel time can kill you, and this is way generous for people not near SF.
I know for the last one we did sponsorship, in the form of I recall my company paid for a lunch. Will the same be an option for this? That will help alliviate the pain for people paying their own way
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Jen Mylo
It would all be done under the WCSF umbrella, for which we do raise a lot of sponsorship money. One of the other benefits of doing a discussion day at Automattic’s space instead of renting meeting rooms, is that we can bring in whatever catering we want rather than having to use a venue’s catering option (always expensive, and not usually satisfactory for vegetarians/vegans/diabetics/gluten-free etc.
We’d likely cover group meals during the contributor team coworking days as well.
Joseph Karr O'Connor
When are we thinking of having the extra days?
Siobhan
I wanted to give the proposal some serious thought before responding. While I would love to see the summit repeated, I think that this is a solid proposal for WordCamp San Francisco, to turn it into a really community-focused event. It would be good, though, if we didn’t call it the “summit”. We’re not going to hold an event like that this year, or perhaps even next year, but it would be nice to retain a Tybee-like event as a possibility. I do think that it’s something people would like to see happen, even with mega-contributor-wcsf on the horizon.
I’ve been reflecting on this as someone who’s actively involved with the European community (and to some extent the wider international community). I think that holding a community-type event in Europe (whether that be a summit or some other form of event) would have an extremely positive impact on the community, just as the WordPress Community Summit has a positive impact two years ago. Holding a big community-focused event in San Francisco is fantastic, but it could be balanced out by holding something across the water as well.
Every international community has their own concerns and issues, but these are often lumped in together as being one big “international communities” problem, rather than addressing them individually. Even the term “international community” is problematic because what’s usually implied is everywhere that isn’t the USA. This is compounded by holding US-centric events. There is a feeling that we’re coming in from the outside, and we feel it even more when people are refused visas, and even just by being interrogated by customs and immigration. People are excluded because of their nationalities and no matter how much we try to help with visa applications, that is always going to be the case.
If we hold an event in Europe we could create an opportunity for those communities to become more invested in the overall global community and to properly address individual concerns (this would not just include European countries, but I hope worldwide). It would also be an opportunity to really engage people who aren’t well-known in the global community but who are holding together their own communities. WordCamp Europe went a long way to help but I think holding a specifically community event, similar to the one proposed for WCSF would help these communities to flourish and would enrich the project as a whole.
There’s going to be a big focus on internationalisation on WordPress.org over the coming year and holding an event in 2015 would be a great complement to this.
Without getting too into specifics of how this would work, I don’t think that this should be coupled with WordCamp Europe. WordCamp Europe is primarily volunteer-run, and all of those volunteers are people who would play an important role in the event. I organised WC Europe last year – the week before the event we were running around like crazy people, and the week after we were exhausted (as this photos succinctly demonstrates). Unlike WordCamp San Francisco, WordCamp Europe doesn’t have the might of Automattic behind it, and adding another three days would be a huge burden (I’m sure it will be for the WCSF organisers too, but the difference is that WCEU doesn’t have employees to help shoulder the burden). What the event specifically would be, I don’t know, but I think it should happen, and would be happy to help make it happen (my time should freed up by the end of the summer).
I believe that this would address many of the concerns about holding this event this year in San Francisco, as well as being a real opportunity to help global communities flourish and enrich and diversify the project as a whole.
On to the San Francisco event. I’ve got a few suggestions/comments/questions about that:
- San Francisco is expensive. In some cases employers can foot the bill, in other cases employers won’t be able to cover the costs. For larger companies it’s easier to absorb these costs but for smaller agencies or outfits with just a few people it’s just not feasible. In order to make it as cheap as possible it would be great to see if the organisers can do some deals with hotels and restaurants in the area where the majority of the event will be held. Maybe a WCSF discount code that will get attendees a discount on food and accommodation? Maybe we could arrange some sort of transport that will pick people up at hotels and drop them at the venues? Any small thing that could be done to alleviate costs would be to many a big help.
- travel scholarships: I think it would be worth not calling any funds available a “travel scholarship.” Scholarships tend to be aimed at students, scholars, and people with low incomes. They should also be available to people who are making a good living but for whom a trip like this to SF would represent a big chunk of income. Maybe “grants” would be better? I know it’s semantics but semantics are often important.
- “We can’t discuss issues with WordCamps/WCSF if it’s at WCSF because Andrea is the organizer”. I don’t think that was specifically the problem. The problem was that by holding the event before WCSF, the organisers of that event would be caught up with WCSF stuff and unable to properly engage. Holding the contributor sessions after the event solves that problem.
- A8C conflict of interest – I don’t personally feel this, but I think some people do and it should be taken seriously and we should be seen to be taking it seriously. We may also have problems with acoustics. It was hard to hear at the WCSF 2013 contributor day and there aren’t that many break-out rooms. Perhaps it might be possible to solve some of this with movable screens or dividers? I have no idea, not being a sound person etc
- question: will companies who aren’t allowed to sponsor WordCamps be allowed to sponsor the community aspect of the event?
Jen Mylo
Team chat agenda for today, WordCamp/conferences-focused meeting.
- WCSF/contributor meetup
@andreamiddleton: What else do you want on the agenda for today? Does anyone else have things related to WordCamps/conferences to discuss with the team?
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Andrea Middleton
My other items are:
- the roadmap to accessible WordCamp websites
- testing a 6-week WordCamp mentorship program
And anything else that people want to talk over.
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Andy McIlwain
Our site for WordCamp Toronto 2014 just went live today, so the accessibility topic is definitely top-of-mind right now.
I’m also curious about privacy policy and cookie policy, and whether those items need to be addressed on WordCamp sites to comply with various regional laws, especially in light of the additional information being collected via CampTix.
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Jen Mylo
I have another item, which is how we should keep track of non-WP conferences that are relevant to our community. Would like to work with Rebecca on this, but don’t think she will be at this meeting. Others might have some thoughts, though.
Jen Mylo
GSoC Update — De-duplication Period
We are now in the de-duplication period of the GSoC application process. This means we’ve submitted to Google our choices for which students we’d like to work with over the summer, as have the other 189 mentoring organizations, and now we’re in the process of figuring out which students should work where, in cases where a student was accepted by more than one project. We are not allowed to say anything about whom we’ve chosen until Google announces the accepted students, as the de-duprication period often shakes up those lists.
As each organization contacts other organizations and the students in question and choices are made, organizations that “lose” a student get to choose another to fill the slot. This can lead to a new duplication, which is why nothing gets announced until there are no remaining duplications. This process will last until Friday, April 18th, when the final de-duplication meeting will happen in IRC at #gsoc at 19:00 UTC.
Based on the outcome of that meeting, the official student list will be announced by Google on Monday, April 21, and at that point the community bonding period begins. If we don’t have any duplication issues, we’ll be accepting six GSoC students this year, but the final number won’t be set until that last de-duplication. When Google announces, we’ll announce our student/mentor matchups on our own team blogs as well.
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Jen Mylo
Update! We had one student also selected by another organization. We spoke with the student and the organization, and the student preferred to work with us. Score! Then that organization chose another student to fill the slot that had just become empty on their roster, and amazingly the student they chose was someone we had also selected. This time the student preferred to work with the other organization. At this point we have no duplications, and should be set to mentor 5 students this year.
Jen Mylo
Profiles
You may have notices that the new profile design has slowly started making it’s way onto the live servers. Please note that it’s getting on there a little at a time, so please don’t start creating trac tickets to fix things, since chances are the thing you’re reporting just hasn’t been deployed yet. We’ll do a big public announcement when we’ve got the full design in place and a solid v1 backend working properly. Thanks!
Chip Bennett 6:29 pm on April 24, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply
What time is this, Jen? I would like to eavesdrop if I could.
Jen Mylo 6:30 pm on April 24, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply
In half an hour in #wordpress-getinvolved. All our IRC chats and hangouts times and locations are persistent in the sidebar on the blog.
Chip Bennett 6:31 pm on April 24, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply
#facepalm me. Thanks!
Jen Mylo 6:41 pm on April 24, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply
No #facepalm required. You might have been replying from an email subscription sans sidebar, right?
Jen Mylo 6:59 pm on April 24, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply
My updates on these:
Profiles — We had a bad run of people not being available due to time off and/or meetups that is continuing though the middle next week, which meant our ‘finish v1′ did not happen yet. At this point, @melchoyce is doing some basic css cleanup and I’m writing up a spec of the dev work we need done, as development is shifting from @iandunn over to @coffee2code (Scott Reilly) for availability reasons (Ian’s been pulled into language packs, so it’s for a good cause!). When we get the things that are broken or not yet implemented into play, then we’ll revisit the design as a v2 project. Will be seeing Scott at WC Austin this weekend, so will get the spec finished with him and post afterward, and we’ll make tickets for the individual fixes on meta trac.
Survey — I made the survey, and posted it to /updates for team reps to distribute, as well as the WordPress accounts on Twitter, Facebook, and Google+. If there are other networks we should push it to, suggest away. I’ll probably write a short post to the wordpress.org/news blog to get it out there as well.
Theme Directory Featured Page — Have been trying to help mediate the brouhaha over on TRT re the featured page, talked with Matt, and this post was the result. We need to make a decision and get it going.
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More meeting notes:
IRC log: http://irclogs.wordpress.org/chanlog.php?channel=wordpress-getinvolved&day=2014-04-24&sort=asc#m19766