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  • Ze Fontainhas 10:36 am on December 11, 2014 Permalink | | Flag unresolved

      vanillaloungept_PT GTE  

      A question for the Twenty Fifteen authors and fellow polyglots, concerning these strings, and their format for screen readers.


      <span class="meta-nav">Next <span class="screen-reader-text">post: </span></span><span class="post-title">%title</span>

      If your language uses a different order, i.e. “Artigo seguinte (en: Post next)”, instead of “Next post”, which is the proper way to translate and keep screen readers happy? The space after “Next” is also intriguing.

    • Ze Fontainhas 9:39 pm on September 25, 2014 Permalink | | Flag unresolved

        vanillaloungept_PT GTE

        Since many of you will be at WordCamp Europe this week-end, and may notice my absence, I suppose that this is as good a moment as any to announce that I am stepping down as the “lead” (never too sure what to call it) of the Polyglots’ team.

        It has been a fantastic run of more than 5 years, and I am not leaving in anger or anything like it; instead, as it so often happens, a combination of reasons from both my personal as well as my professional life dictate that I must step back, for an indeterminate amount of time (this decision affects not only Polyglots, but also my presence as WordCamp organizer, including Europe 2014, and forums’ volunteer, among others, by the way).

        I have discussed this with both @samuelsidler and @nacin, and we are working on a smooth transition plan, which means that I’ll probably be dealing with operational issues for just a bit longer, but I expect that Sofia will be the perfect occasion to kick off the debate on that (just make sure to report back here).

        Also, you won’t be completely rid of me: I am not moving to the Galapagos 🙂 and will probably hang around as one of the translators of pt_PT: as usual, feel free to ping me at any time, about whatever, whenever you need to, keeping in mind that, from now on, I will only have opinions to offer, not solutions.

        In closing, I’d just like to add that I have made many great and (I hope) lasting friendships here, which I fully intend to keep and that I will remember my days here, with all of you, with fondness and gratitude.

        Thank you and happy translating 🙂

      • Ze Fontainhas 3:07 pm on August 11, 2014 Permalink | | Flag unresolved

          vanillaloungept_PT GTE  

          Trying to wrap my head around the 4.0 silence, here are a few personal thoughts. They’re not directed at anyone in particular, as I can’t judge other factors that may be impacting the issue, and are just an attempt at trying to summarize the issue (this one issue, obviously; there are others):

          • 4.0 is coming and we have, yet again, no string freeze
          • We have no Dev project in Translate with 4.0’s strings
          • It’s August. In many places around the world people are on holidays, which makes the effort to translate and validate what will most certainly be a torrent of new strings nearly impossible
          • We keep hearing about (and seeing in betas) the monumental (and very laudable) effort to focus on localisation
          • We were announced this: no one on polyglots that I know was involved in any kind of defining discussion prior to this announcement
          • As far as I can tell, no polyglot is involved in the current discussion either. Granted, this may be due to a lack of initiative to participate, but, given the above, an understandable one
          • The bare minimum would be to provide some feedback. We all understand that schedules are tight and contribution is voluntary, but a little heads-up goes a very long way.

          Summing up, what we see is our work, defined outside this group, piling up, with what seems the expectation that “oh, polyglots will translate when everything else has been taken care of”, apparently oblivious the fact that we’re responsible for providing WordPress for more than half of total downloads worldwide.

          If you feel that you have something to add, do discuss the points as you see fit, but please keep the debate civil, polite and constructive. We all (and I mean all) work hard, disrespect has no place here.

          • Remkus de Vries 3:16 pm on August 11, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

            Having just returned from my holiday I am surprised to see we’re not one step further than three weeks ago with this … which makes me sad 🙁

          • Xavier Borderie 4:59 pm on August 11, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

            Thanks for this summary, Zé.

            A positive aside might be that, since the new system was announced in May as:

            • Not having per-language builds.
            • Not having language-separate “Update” buttons in the admin.
            • …in addition to being able to update the translation separately (which I have yet to witness working, but still)

            …it might be that being at 100% on D-Day is not as important for further releases (4.0 onward) as it was in the past.

            Still, knowing how all of this will work (or whether all the good stuffs announced in May are ready or not) is a must in this shortening timeframe.

            • Mattias Tengblad 5:29 pm on August 11, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

              Disagree, being at 100% on release is still as important. I for one wouldn’t wont something else than 100% at release.

              • Xavier Borderie 5:58 pm on August 11, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

                I agree with you 100% (ha!), I’m only stating this because not having day-0 full translation might be what the new system is being built to help us with (sorry for the weird sentence, hm).

                But really, for all we know, it could be something totally different — we haven’t had much news since the May announcements.

                • Mattias Tengblad 7:40 pm on August 11, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

                  Ah, ok. Get what you mean now.

                • Andrew Nacin 3:48 am on August 14, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

                  The system isn’t designed for being sub-100% when the release comes. While it does handle that situation, it is actually designed for these three use cases:

                  1. You’ve finished translating WordPress 4.x with a week to spare. Congratulations! When it gets released, you don’t need to do a thing — if your translation is at 100%, it will automatically be packaged up for you. No more rushing to package things up.

                  2. You noticed a pretty glaring typo the day after a major release. You can go ahead and fix it. The download packages and the language packs will automatically be updated (within a day or a week or a push of a button — this is up for discussion and it’s trivial to do any of these) and sites will automatically be updated to them.

                  3. A security release needs to come out. You don’t need to do a thing at all. There will be no new strings, and the scripts will handle building your new 4.0.2 packages to be available for download.

                  Essentially, the idea is to get you out of release management and allow you to spend your time translating and building your local communities.

                  • Naoko Takano 5:59 am on August 14, 2014 Permalink

                    I’m curious how packages that still require special modification are going to be handled (e.g. Japanese pkg still needs WP Multibyte Patch). Will the automated packaging process include /dist/ directory for these locales?

          • Marko Heijnen 5:36 pm on August 11, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

            We need communication between core and polyglots and not having core working on their issues and we do here only translations. The internationalisation teams should be more then that.

          • Gabriel Reguly 5:40 pm on August 11, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

            Nice post Zé, but will it be effective?

            Because there are posts on other places that also got the 4.0 silence. 🙁


            Maybe @helen could be sensibilized if we all politely show up at the next dev chat?

            • Andrew Nacin 3:51 am on August 14, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

              I’m in charge of all i18n. There was some silence because I was busy cleaning up after the security release last week (which I spent a few weeks beforehand managing) and then there was a weekend.

          • Stephen Edgar 12:12 am on August 12, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

            I’m with you regarding the fact that there is no 4.0 /dev branch to translate strings yet. 🙁

            Not so much on the other parts. I believe @Nacin clearly laid out the goals and at the time asked “I’ll need a lot of help”. I would also say that with the vast majority of each of these goals included were links to the relevant tickets on Trac.

            I am subscribed to the i18n component on trac and receive an email for every single ticket and comment for the i18n component. I am participating and contributing to the i18n component where and when I can all the time and thus this also includes the 4.0 goals, be it adding patches (when I can), feedback or testing.

            In my opinion the place to contribute towards these “i18n 4.0 goals” is on WordPress Trac, in each individual ticket, for each bit of functionality and not have fragmented discussions here on Polyglots P2.

            • Mattias Tengblad 1:42 am on August 12, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

              You are making the assumption that every translator is a developer.

              • Petya Raykovska 10:18 am on August 12, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

                You don’t have to be a developer to follow trac and give feedback.

                • Ze Fontainhas 10:24 am on August 12, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

                  That is a whole other discussion. I’m with Mattias on this one: you probably do.

                  • Stephen Edgar 11:58 am on August 12, 2014 Permalink

                    Ze, my original reply was a touch longer and I had originally included something similar to what I think you are alluding to here but was not happy with how I was articulating my point in this regard so I removed that section.

                    Much of the i18n 4.0 goals are not just a thing for the “Polyglots” team, theoretically these would also involve the “Accessibility” and “UI” teams also and not forgetting the “Core” team.

                    I agree that Trac can be a difficult place to navigate but be it code, design, functionality, testing or feedback this all needs to happen somewhere and fragmenting the discussion in multiple locations is not easy for anyone to keep on top of.

                    Each feature or part thereof should be in a single location where it can be scoped, coded, tested, receive feedback and finally committed and in the WordPress world of things that place is Trac.

                    Trac has become friendlier with recent improvements such as being able subscribe to a particular component or focus of interest but as you state this is a whole other discussion.

                  • Mattias Tengblad 2:34 pm on August 12, 2014 Permalink

                    Putting Stephens comment against Zé’s comment below.

                    Stephen feel that everything should be done in trac (even the planing?)

                    Zé is pointing out that trac tickets shouldn’t be used for general questions about functions being developed.

                    I’m seeing contradictions in this workflow. What is this P2 for? Only access requests?

                    In my mind trac should be used as it is, for the development specific parts, not the general discussions. Development specific chatter in a general translator discussion and vice verse makes things very hard to follow for each group (assuming they only have knowledge in their area).

                    How many of the polyglotters are actually active on trac? Not many. To then just blindly refer to trac as many core members are doing is not constructive at all.

                    Is it really that hard to setup a irc chat session between core and polyglot, for planning and reconnaissance of workflow for i18n and the language teams when things change?

                    @petya of course not, but still, trac is development oriented and not everyone feels confident commenting on tickets. One should not dismiss that there are problems with this approach given that these discussions continue to occur.

                  • Ze Fontainhas 3:47 pm on August 12, 2014 Permalink

                    I was originally replying to @petya, but ok. I still think you’re coming from a developer mindset, but i grant you that it is wholly subjective.

                    Now, as to:

                    …code, design, functionality, testing or feedback this all needs to happen somewhere and fragmenting the discussion in multiple locations is not easy for anyone to keep on top of.

                    It certainly does, and Trac is certainly the place for that. What you’re not taking into account is that I’m referring to the moments prior to that: the goals were announced, not discussed, nor was there any previous hint that they might drop: they were suddenly there.

                    Trac has become friendlier with recent improvements

                    Indeed it has, but the issue is not one of features, but rather of population: It takes a significant psychological shift to start or participate in a discussion in Trac. It is no coincidence that practically every WordCamp has a talk or a hack day sessionon how to contribute on Trac, and not be afraid of the people there.

                    Trac is a crucial component, as is moving the tickets along with constructive debate. It is not, however, a place for conceptual conversations around features.

                    Developers tend to not see that distinction.

                  • Petya Raykovska 5:14 pm on August 12, 2014 Permalink

                    Do you think we can come up with a process and change the need for people to go on trac and follow and participate in discussions?

                    If these problems keep occuring perhaps we could figure out a way to interact with the core team and keep people on the Polyglots blog better informed?


                    • Someone keeps an eye on trac i18n tickets (Stephen already does!) and gives a regular summery on the p2 on the developments if things need to be discussed
                    • If the topic is tricky or conflicting, we schedule a chat with core team to better get what they’re thinking?
                  • Stephen Edgar 4:07 am on August 13, 2014 Permalink

                    @damst, @vanillalounge @petya Thanks, I think pretty much everything written in reply to my last reply are good points and should be worked on, developed, fleshed out further on how the Polyglots team wants to ‘contribute’ more than just translations to WordPress Core.

                    Not all that long ago I would say the Accessibility team faced similar issues to what we are generally talking about here. Now they hold regular weekly IRC chats and post updates their P2 blog. The ‘Core’ team knows about this chat and I’ve seen @Helen swing by with specific requests during those IRC chat’s.

                    So maybe this would be the obvious first steps for Polyglots, start idling in IRC more, having a weekly chat (or two for people’s time zone differences), and make ourselves more available and to more teams across the WordPress project. That can then be a starting point do discuss how the Polyglots team can best achieve it’s team goals.

            • pavelevap 8:47 am on August 12, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

              I also tried this way and made several tickets related to current localization, for example:


              So, reinstalling WordPress does not work for localized versions. Language files in wp-content/languages are automatically overwritten (yes, really, please be carefull when using Poedit because you can LOST your work in a sec), etc. Nobody interested in Trac…

              And comments:

              Nobody answered and I am not a developer.

              • Ze Fontainhas 10:23 am on August 12, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

                Hold on. Only #28723 is silent. #28571 has an active discussion going on. As to the comments in #28577, they seem to simply be out of place, hijacking the thread. Fair is fair and your comment gives the wrong impression.

          • pavelevap 12:14 pm on August 12, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

            Sorry, but #28571 is not active discussion. I described some problems there (with major one related to overwriting localization files) 2 months ago and several users added the same observations. This should be resolved before first beta and not several days before official release.

            And in #28577 I tried to raise the same questions as on Polyglots and other tickets, because it is the only active i18n ticket. Second comment is not ticket hijacking, I asked how to change language name for language installer and still no reply.

          • Mattias Tengblad 1:25 am on August 14, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

            Interesting read https://irclogs.wordpress.org/chanlog.php?channel=wordpress-dev&day=2014-08-13&sort=asc#m905811

            I am somewhat concerned about the attitude displayed by some core members, but at the same time happy that others are trying to change the situation.

        • Ze Fontainhas 5:41 pm on May 24, 2014 Permalink | | Flag unresolved

            vanillaloungept_PT GTE  

            Following the guidelines for links on Rosetta site’s, discussed earlier, here’s a suggested procedure for implementing said guidelines. In a nutshell, when offending links are found on a Rosetta site:

            • Validators will be contacted, and given two weeks to clean them
            • If, after those two weeks, the situation remains, and no reply is forthcoming, another, sterner, warning will be sent, giving them another week to clean those links
            • Once that week has gone by, and if nothing has changed, validators will simply be warned on the day before that the links will be forcibly removed
            • Rasheed Bydousi 7:34 am on May 25, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

              What that means “offending links”?

            • Stephen Edgar 9:48 pm on June 4, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

              Can I also suggest that if a locale has removed the ‘contact’ and/or ‘release’ pages that they are also reinstated.

              • Mattias Tengblad 10:10 pm on June 4, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

                Release page, fine. Contact page, no thank you. Removed that page after 2 years of nothing but nonsense mails. We’re using other means of contact for sv_SE.

                • Stephen Edgar 10:42 pm on June 4, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

                  I hear you loud and clear on your issue with junk and support requests coming via the ‘contact’ page. We added a Rosetta translation here that improved the verbiage of our contact page here, we changed the link title from ‘contact’ to ‘translation issues’ and kept the /contact permalink, since doing that I have not had a single support (or junk) email in my inbox.

                  I see no difference between having the contact page on the WordPress locale site being any different to the contact form in the case of sv_SE. Clicking ‘Help’ on sv.wordpress.org, click ‘kontact’ on wpsv.sv and land at a similar form at eyesx.com/kontact.

                  The WordPress locale sites ‘contact’ page like what we have added in en_AU (granted it is not currently showing the custom translation at the moment) is designed as a point of contact for translations issues and not support. Probably some updated verbiage for that page to allow the translations to not get the GlotPress warning “Warning: Lengths of source and translation differ too much.” are in order but I see no reason why we cannot work on making this page more effective and work as it’s intended purpose of being a contact page for translations issues.

                  • Mattias Tengblad 11:49 am on June 5, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

                    We did a similar translation edit, but that did not help at all. Swedes tend to contact “WordPress” any way they can. I’ve lost count of how many times I’ve been yield at because “it’s to hard to contact WordPress” (often meaning wp.com).

                    The page wpsv.se got right now is a temporary page as we are developing a new local portal @ GitHub. “Kontakt” is redirecting to my personal site for the time being.

                    What we usually use at wpsv.se is a form with a required check box that you need to check, saying “Yes, I’m aware that I should NOT send support requests via this form”. That has been the most effective way of reducing nonsense along with having a big red box with clear instruction like the mentioned translation edit.

          • Ze Fontainhas 11:53 pm on May 15, 2014 Permalink | | Flag unresolved

              vanillaloungept_PT GTE  

              Since Rosetta sites are in flux to a more robust and usable form, here’s a suggestion of guidelines for everyone to comment on.

              They concern linking from your language’s Rosetta site to the outside; some links to third-party (external) community sites, such as local community sites and links to community support forums (until that feature is added for your locale on WordPress.org) are accepted practice. In the best interest of the WordPress project, additional expectations are listed here:

              1. Rosetta sites are expected to benefit the WordPress community rather than specific business(es) or individual(s).  (Note the general expectations for translating WordPress.)

              2. To avoid any conflict of interest, it’s expected that validators and translators will not use their own sites as examples of good WordPress sites in their showcase.  The WordPress community is large and examples of WordPress sites are very easy to find.

              3. Rosetta sites are expected to avoid advertising and affiliate marketing and to link only to websites that benefit the local community.

            • Ze Fontainhas 2:21 pm on April 16, 2014 Permalink | | Flag unresolved

                vanillaloungept_PT GTE  

                I’m receiving a bunch of Rosetta Deploy Requests, and this usually happens just before a new release. Please keep in mind that deploying rosetta is in no way related to building and releasing a new package. The process simply and only deploys translations of your xx.wordpress.org site itself.

              • Ze Fontainhas 12:36 pm on March 23, 2014 Permalink | | Resolved

                  vanillaloungept_PT GTE  

                  @nacin looks like a typo (not sure this is a core ticket, do tell me if it belongs elsewhere)


                • Ze Fontainhas 5:08 pm on February 25, 2014 Permalink | | Flag unresolved

                    vanillaloungept_PT GTE  

                    And now for a little housekeeping: It’s time to choose a team rep.

                    What is a team rep?

                    The team rep has two major roles:

                    • Report what’s happening with polyglots to the make/updates P2 so other teams can keep up.
                    • Report what’s happening with other teams back to the polyglots team

                    For more information see this post on the make/updates P2.

                    Who’s eligible?

                    Any member of the polyglots team (all of us here) is eligible to serve as team rep.

                    How will team reps be elected?

                    Since we’re a large team, all those interested in being a team rep should nominate themselves by commenting on this post. You can also nominate someone other than yourself.

                    On Sunday we’ll post a poll here with the list of nominations for all of you to vote on. The top two candidates will serve as team rep and backup team rep.

                    Other questions

                    If you have any questions about the role, feel free to ask in the comments.

                    • JonWPorter 5:27 pm on February 25, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

                      where is the Malagasy team? (22 million people in the country Madagascar)

                    • Marko Heijnen 5:46 pm on February 25, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

                      I would like to nominate @petya-r. I’m more then happy to be a backup team rep. At least I will help out the team rep to retrieve useful stats for a weekly post since I don’t think that is possible right now.

                    • Kevin Kyburz (@swissky) 7:26 pm on February 26, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

                      Hoe many Time cost this “job”?

                      • Sam Sidler 7:42 pm on February 26, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

                        Other teams have weekly chats, which the team rep can moderate or not (depends on the team). Those teams also have weekly updates that are posted both to their respective P2s (in this case, make/polyglots) and to make/updates to let other teams know what their team is doing.

                        As of now, the polyglots team doesn’t have weekly chats, but weekly updates would be valuable and would take some time to compile (look at the stats on make/updates for the theme team). I imagine a couple hours a week. More with weekly chats, less when things are slow.

                    • Xavier Borderie 10:16 pm on February 28, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

                      Neither Remkus nor you Zé have commented here yet. Should we take it that you are resigning as the current Polyglots reps?

                      • Ze Fontainhas 10:56 pm on February 28, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

                        As far as a) I’m aware, and b) that is even a thing, I’m still the team’s lead (!= rep), unless you (or anyone) want to bring that up for discussion, which is perfectly fine.

                        • Marko Heijnen 12:39 am on March 4, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

                          Is there a page about that. Curious if there is overlap a future team rep should know about. I guess a clear structure is needed and probably can be a part of the plugin I still need to upload on meta trac.

                    • Kazama 4:28 pm on March 2, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

                      Since most validators work independently, it would be helpful if each nominees introduce him/herself. Right now my vote would go to Ze (if he be nominated). coz he doing this role quite well (in my opinion), second reason is I didn’t know other much. :p

                  • Ze Fontainhas 11:18 am on February 13, 2014 Permalink | | Flag unresolved

                      vanillaloungept_PT GTE  

                      Chat set for today at 22:00 UTC, #wordpress-polyglots on IRC

                    • Ze Fontainhas 8:42 pm on February 5, 2014 Permalink | | Flag unresolved

                        vanillaloungept_PT GTE

                        Started a Doodle to try and schedule a team chat on IRC. Feel free to add your name and availabilty. Thanks.

                      • Ze Fontainhas 10:30 am on November 25, 2013 Permalink | | Flag unresolved

                          vanillaloungept_PT GTE

                          Next chat on #wordpress-polyglots (IRC) on the 3rd of December, at 21:00 UTC. (See below why).

                          Proposed agenda (feel free to add):

                          • Team structure
                          • Procedures for dealing with dormant translations
                          • Meta plans
                          • Access to current tools
                        • Ze Fontainhas 2:58 pm on November 22, 2013 Permalink | | Flag unresolved

                            vanillaloungept_PT GTE  

                            Sorry to upset everyone’s schedule, but I’d like to suggest to push the chat to December, 2nd, so that @nacin can be present. Does it work?

                          • Ze Fontainhas 11:20 am on November 22, 2013 Permalink | | Resolved

                              vanillaloungept_PT GTE  

                              Either I’m doing something wrong or else the… 

                              Either I’m doing something wrong, or else the sync isn’t working properly. Case in point, these two strings have been obsoleted by this changeset (which is 9 hours old now), but the originals still list the old ones, here and here.

                            • Ze Fontainhas 9:33 pm on November 21, 2013 Permalink | | Flag unresolved

                                vanillaloungept_PT GTE  

                                I’m calling a general polyglots chat on #wordpress-polyglots for the 25th of November, at 21:00 UTC (tentative). Does that work for most of you? Any other suggestions if it doesn’t?

                              • Ze Fontainhas 7:34 pm on November 17, 2013 Permalink | | Flag unresolved

                                  vanillaloungept_PT GTE  

                                  I think we pretty much all agree that the Codex pages below suck, are outdated, and serve no real purpose:

                                  Here’s a crazy idea:

                                  Who, in this brilliant group of people, thinks she or he can develop the code needed to show the correct (and automatically updated) information on this P2, via shortcode, or otherwise? Ideally (and to keep it as simple as possible, it would list:

                                  • Language name (both English and local)
                                  • Link to the site
                                  • Team members’ (editors and validators) gravatar cards


                                  • xx.wordpress.org sites are part of a single multisite install
                                  • Nice code, i.e. guidelines! sanitize all the things! and so on
                                  • Whichever code we agree on will need to be reviewed (and possibly adapted) to run on wordpress.org
                                  • No guarantees that it’ll actually be implemented, but we need to start showing initiative ourselves.

                                  We have many (very) capable devs here, let’s show some firepower, shall we?

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