aduth 1:25 am on May 31, 2017
Tags: javascript ( 126 ), summary ( 819 )

JavaScript Chat Summary for May 30th

Foreword: The topic of integrating a new JavaScriptJavaScript JavaScript or JS is an object-oriented computer programming language commonly used to create interactive effects within web browsers. WordPress makes extensive use of JS for a better user experience. While PHP is executed on the server, JS executes within a user’s browser. https://www.javascript.com/. framework in WordPress has proven to be both lively and contentious. The summary that follows is a best effort at an objective and accurate recap, but you are encouraged to review the original Slack transcript for the complete unaltered context (Slack registration required).

Below is a summary of the discussion from today’s JavaScript chat (agenda, Slack transcript, last week’s summary):

Introduction

The conversation that followed from last week has taken heavy aim at considering only ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/. and VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/. as candidates. Have we been certain to exhaust all other options?
Backbone features will continue to be maintained in coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress. for the foreseeable future
The decision to be made is one affecting new features to be built
Developers will still have flexibility in choosing their preferred tools for themes and plugins
We need to know what we’re building in order to make sound technical decisions. This year’s focuses can serve as a start: the post editor (Gutenberg), CustomizerCustomizer Tool built into WordPress core that hooks into most modern themes. You can use it to preview and modify many of your site’s appearance settings. expansion in moving toward theme building functionality, and REST APIREST API The REST API is an acronym for the RESTful Application Program Interface (API) that uses HTTP requests to GET, PUT, POST and DELETE data. It is how the front end of an application (think “phone app” or “website”) can communicate with the data store (think “database” or “file system”) https://developer.wordpress.org/rest-api/.-based reimplementations of existing features (examples including Quick Draft, post listing)

Alternative Suggestions

Deciding on React as the framework of choice in WordPress.comWordPress.com An online implementation of WordPress code that lets you immediately access a new WordPress environment to publish your content. WordPress.com is a private company owned by Automattic that hosts the largest multisite in the world. This is arguably the best place to start blogging if you have never touched WordPress before. https://wordpress.com/ Calypso was the result of prototype implementations of various frameworks (at the time, 3+ years ago) and judging the success of each.
Preact could serve as a stand-in for a React-like paradigm if we consider ourselves blocked by React’s patent grant or ideological differences between Facebook the company and WordPress the project.

Contrasting Candidates for Consideration

The bulk of the conversation considered the merits of React and Vue only, largely contrasted on the basis of developer onboarding, ideological alignment between WordPress and for-profit companies, and the extent to which each sets the foundation for successful future maintenance of the features we seek to implement.

Vue in practice: There have been no examples surfaced for projects relating to WordPress and the sorts of features we want to build (examples welcome in comments).
Ideological implications: We should consider what it means to align WordPress with any particular framework. There’s a worry that the values of Facebook as a company are at odds with those of WordPress.
Concerns about React: its learning curve and licensing (specifically, a termination clause included in its patent grant)
React is a pattern as much as it is a library, as evidenced by proliferation of compatible libraries like Preact, Inferno, Rax, and others.
- Patterns emphasizing declarative rendering, one-way data flow, and embracing JavaScript the language. WordPress has historically stayed true to the fundamentals of the languages, largely foregoing template languages or other domain-specific languages in PHPPHP The web scripting language in which WordPress is primarily architected. WordPress requires PHP 5.6.20 or higher.
Embracing JavaScript the language
- Building rich applications is not comparable to history of applying JavaScript minimally in small interactions. Modern JavaScript is necessarily more involved to learn than a library like jQuery because we are building more complex functionality.
- Are we really setting a foundation for developers to succeed into the future if we obscure the language with a template language like Vue’s (logic example)? Are we being inviting to new developers who began programming using JavaScript, or providing skill-learning opportunities that are broadly applicable?
- Vue offers render functions similar to React, but their existence could undermine the perception of Vue being simpler if we’re acknowledging that the limits of the framework necessitate additional paradigms encompassing the entirety of React. Or is the argument of React’s complexity something else?
Conversely, there is a strong sentiment that Vue has a much friendlier developer onboarding experience. WordPress has prospered by its approachability, and our patterns in JavaScript should reflect this too. Vue’s documentation is undeniably superb.
- Regardless of any framework decision, making educational resources available will be important
The role of corporate backing: Is Facebook’s investment in React a benefit in its supporting longevity of the project, or would it hold us hostage to the whim of their decision-making?
- Vue is largely maintained by a single contributor (related: bus factor) funded via Patreon to work full-time on the project
- It is not in Facebook’s interest to make large backwards-incompatible changes, because they too would suffer in their maintenance of hundreds of thousands of components across their products
On the complexity of React: is this more accurately attributed to supporting tooling? Specifically build tools like Webpack, and patterns for state management like Redux. For better or worse, React is largely unopinionated on architecture not affecting view rendering.
- Would we need similar tooling for Vue? Both Vue and React offer no-tooling-required options, but both also push developers toward a build process (single file components for Vue, JSX for React)
- Is build configuration something that we’d expose to developers anyways? Maybe not for the configuration itself, but a build process generally limits ability to directly modify files on a remote server.
- Build tooling could be a worthwhile inevitably for developers to learn
Readability: Vue components may be more readable for new developers because they leverage HTMLHTML HyperText Markup Language. The semantic scripting language primarily used for outputting content in web browsers.-like elements and attributes
Approachability: Ease of getting started can be a double-edged sword if it fails to teach fundamentals of the language that would be necessary for continued maintenance. The demands of rich interfaces necessitate a deep understanding of the language.
- At the same time, we must not ignore that WordPress would not be where it is today if not for its ease of getting started. If we achieve maintainability but nobody is willing or capable to maintain it, then nothing is accomplished.
To differing sentiments between the developer chat and resulting commentary on last week’s summary: there are clear React leanings observed in the SlackSlack Slack is a Collaborative Group Chat Platform https://slack.com/. The WordPress community has its own Slack Channel at https://make.wordpress.org/chat/. chat, whereas the summary comments largely favored Vue.
- How can we disassemble surface-level claims of “complex” and “simple” into a detailed understanding of why these feelings exist?
The broad impact of choosing a framework: PluginPlugin A plugin is a piece of software containing a group of functions that can be added to a WordPress website. They can extend functionality or add new features to your WordPress websites. WordPress plugins are written in the PHP programming language and integrate seamlessly with WordPress. These can be free in the WordPress.org Plugin Directory https://wordpress.org/plugins/ or can be cost-based plugin from a third-party and theme authors should have the freedom and flexibility to choose their desired tool.
- In this framing, it should primarily be a decision of core contributorsCore Contributors Core contributors are those who have worked on a release of WordPress, by creating the functions or finding and patching bugs. These contributions are done through Trac. https://core.trac.wordpress.org. to make if it is they who are to be affected.
- But is a framework decision going to count as a vote of confidence and unnecessarily skew perceptions one way or the other to choosing the best tool for the job?
Learning from the past: Why does Media Library see so few contributions? What lessons can we learn from this to avoid having this conversation again in a few years time, or is that an inevitability?
Future compatibility: Templating languages tend to have short lifespans. An example was raised of a Vue 2.0 breaking change regarding v-for as evidence suggesting that deviations from the core language are subject to change and therefore undermine stability. Learning the syntax of a language can be simple at the cost of understanding the underlying flow of data.
Process for adoption: A rewrite is unfeasible, and therefore modularity is an important consideration. Do we see the future dashboard as a collection of small applications, or a monolithic single-page application? There appear to be differing opinions on this.
- Instead of rushing to adopt a new framework, where can we find ways to reduce our footprint, especially in light of revised browser support?

Conclusion and Action Items

With WordCamp Europe quickly approaching and this conversation having encompassed two JavaScript chats, it’s expected that a review of the discussions and formulation of action items should take place during the WCEU contributor dayContributor Day Contributor Days are standalone days, frequently held before or after WordCamps but they can also happen at any time. They are events where people get together to work on various areas of https://make.wordpress.org/ There are many teams that people can participate in, each with a different focus. https://2017.us.wordcamp.org/contributor-day/ https://make.wordpress.org/support/handbook/getting-started/getting-started-at-a-contributor-day/. and at the Community Summit.

The topic of next week’s JavaScript chat will not focus on this decision, but you are encouraged to leave your comments below relating to this week’s topic or a suggestion for next week.

#javascript, #summary

jteague 1:53 am on May 31, 2017

Thank you for the thorough notes. I wonder about webcomponents and Polymer (although the latter isn’t necessarily required) as an option. Just thinking out loud.
rheinardkorf 2:08 am on May 31, 2017

Well summarised @aduth and appreciate the subjectivity in the summary. Although I shared much discontent in that meeting, I do want to note that whatever framework ends up in coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress. is obviously the one that I will stand by.

One note regarding the choosing of a framework, has there been any attempt to draw up a matrix of specific desired features (left) and considered frameworks (top) with notes on each framework (perhaps ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/., VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/., Preact)?

After the meeting there were also some discussion re a global store. Perhaps a similar matrix for Redux, Flux and Vuex?
Justin Kopepasah 4:18 am on May 31, 2017
Excellent summary @aduth.

Everyone knows that framework discussions often cause much tension; it is wonderful to see our chats not steer off path. These discussions ensure we are making the correct decision for WordPress and no matter the final consensus, we can all stand behind the decision because we came to a consensus as a group.

I will stand behind that decision.

I only have one thing to add about corporate backing in relation to VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/.:
- Vue is largely adopted by the three largest tech companies in China – Alibaba, Baidu & Tencent (source)
While these companies may not have a direct influence on Vue, they may have an indirect influence in the longevity and direction of the project overtime (which could also be good and bad).

Look forward to more discussions in the future.
Mike Schinkel 5:43 am on May 31, 2017

Okay, so I just read through ALL the SlackSlack Slack is a Collaborative Group Chat Platform https://slack.com/. The WordPress community has its own Slack Channel at https://make.wordpress.org/chat/. logs and the Make summaries and comments here and WPTavern and can say without a doubt that this entire fustercluck is one of the biggest bikeshedding events I have seen in years! Everyone who expressed an opinion was complicit, and those who expression opinions most frequently and most strenuously were the most complicit.

So, given that this is a comment section I’m going to add my two cents and hope to avoid bikeshedding but knowing that I will likely step into it just like everyone else.

IMO the importance of making WordPress easy to extend cannot be overstated. So one of the most important debates I read was that between “Easy to learn” and “This only matters to coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress. developers.”

(As a side note when a large number of people say that VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/. is easier to learn why challenge their perspective rather than simply accepting that statistically it appears the overwhelming number of people believe Vue IS easier to learn? (Point of note: I have never used either.) Why not just accept “Vue is easier to learn” as a postulate and instead make other arguments in favor of ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/.?)

All that said, I saw nobody (except BMO, who touched on it) discuss anything at all about how regular everyday WordPress site users and site builders would be empowered to make simple tweaks to the things built in React-or-Vue like they currently can make tiny tweaks to WordPress core using the PHPPHP The web scripting language in which WordPress is primarily architected. WordPress requires PHP 5.6.20 or higher-based hook system.

So my question/challenge to everyone who is arguing for which framework to you is this: Show us how the everyday WordPress person will modify and/or extend the things built in React-or-Vue that the core developers (who are the only ones “who will need to use and understand it”) will build?

Would it be possible, for example, for the core developers to build a major component using React, but then have a hook system that allows the everyday WordPress person to modify and extend that major component in a theme or pluginPlugin A plugin is a piece of software containing a group of functions that can be added to a WordPress website. They can extend functionality or add new features to your WordPress websites. WordPress plugins are written in the PHP programming language and integrate seamlessly with WordPress. These can be free in the WordPress.org Plugin Directory https://wordpress.org/plugins/ or can be cost-based plugin from a third-party using Vue?

Or could a Vue component be developed by the core developers that an everyday WordPress person would be able to then modify and extend using React?

And when an everyday WordPress person wants to make one tiny tweak, do they have to dredge in a full modern developer build system to do so?

If the answer to the above questions are “No, they would have to use the same framework and implement a build system”, then I would argue the selection is NOT about just what the core developers need, but instead what the motivated person with the least developer skill in the WordPress community needs to not be overwhelmed and give up.

On the other hand, if the answer is “Yes, they can use whatever framework they are comfortable with and only need to implement a build system if they want to” then I would say that this entire bikeshedding debate it totally moot! Let the core developers use what they want and we everday WordPress people can then use whatever we want.

But my fear is that the former will be the case, not the latter. Since I do not code in JSJS JavaScript, a web scripting language typically executed in the browser. Often used for advanced user interfaces and behaviors. I am not familiar enough with what is possible there and what is not.

That said, maybe there is a third way? Maybe there is a shim or bridge of sorts to support a to-be-developed WordPress-specific JS hook framework that can be used agnostically for React, for Vue and/or for any other JS framework some plugin or theme developer might use?Something super simple designed to make it easy for the everyday WordPress person to make changes in ways that have never been possible for the everyday WordPress person to make changes to the Media component or the CustomizerCustomizer Tool built into WordPress core that hooks into most modern themes. You can use it to preview and modify many of your site’s appearance settings..

Whatever the case, unless everyone having this debate considers and discusses how an everyday WordPress person will extend the components made by the core developers in React-or-Vue then the bikeshedding will continue until the core developers choose React by fiat and leaves a bad taste in the mouth of everyone who argued strenuously for Vue.

Or we will be revisiting this same question in 3-5 years as these new React-or-Vue components will have just as much legacy baggage as the current Media component does. If you ignore this advice, don’t say I did not warn you.
- Retrofitter 8:41 am on May 31, 2017
  
  Thanks a lot, Mike – you describe my sentiments very precisely.
  
  I feel very much like ’everyday WordPress person’ you describe. I can hack my way around PHPPHP The web scripting language in which WordPress is primarily architected. WordPress requires PHP 5.6.20 or higher make to smaller modifications to the Post Editing Screen – registering a custom posttype, a custom taxonomyTaxonomy A taxonomy is a way to group things together. In WordPress, some common taxonomies are category, link, tag, or post format. https://codex.wordpress.org/Taxonomies#Default_Taxonomies. and creating a custom metaboxMetabox A post metabox is a draggable box shown on the post editing screen. Its purpose is to allow the user to select or enter information in addition to the main post content. This information should be related to the post in some way. with some fields, that I need for a specific theme.
  
  Reading the discussion about JSJS JavaScript, a web scripting language typically executed in the browser. Often used for advanced user interfaces and behaviors. frameworks on Make and SlackSlack Slack is a Collaborative Group Chat Platform https://slack.com/. The WordPress community has its own Slack Channel at https://make.wordpress.org/chat/., I don’t feel confident, that I will be able to do stuff like this, when GutenbergGutenberg The Gutenberg project is the new Editor Interface for WordPress. The editor improves the process and experience of creating new content, making writing rich content much simpler. It uses ‘blocks’ to add richness rather than shortcodes, custom HTML etc. https://wordpress.org/gutenberg//JS takes over. (and by the way Gutenberg looks absolutely wonderful).
  E.g. No way I’m able to do any modifications to the Media Manager.
  
  Of course I need to learn JS, and I can’t say whether it will be easier for me with VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/. or ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/..
  But I will need to do it step-by-step creating stuff I need for specific projects, just like I have gone from creating a child themeChild theme A Child Theme is a customized theme based upon a Parent Theme. It’s considered best practice to create a child theme if you want to modify the CSS of your theme. https://developer.wordpress.org/themes/advanced-topics/child-themes/. to creating small functionality plugins.
  Taking days, weeks or months out of my calendar to learn a new language/framework from scratch is not realistic for a ’everyday WordPress person’ like me.
  
  So for me it’s not question about choosing a framework, but whether ’the first step’ will low enough for a ’non-real-developer’ like me to take.
- andreasnrb 6:57 am on June 5, 2017
  
  The whole JSJS JavaScript, a web scripting language typically executed in the browser. Often used for advanced user interfaces and behaviors. debate relates to the administration backend not the frontend. So why we should debate how themes might use VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/. or ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/. seems like a mute point. Ordinary users wouldn’t touch these things in most cases only developers.
  
  I can say though that you can generate Vue templates on the server via PHPPHP The web scripting language in which WordPress is primarily architected. WordPress requires PHP 5.6.20 or higher, cache them, and include them on the frontend so theres that. That would handle any filterFilter Filters are one of the two types of Hooks https://codex.wordpress.org/Plugin_API/Hooks. They provide a way for functions to modify data of other functions. They are the counterpart to Actions. Unlike Actions, filters are meant to work in an isolated manner, and should never have side effects such as affecting global variables and output. and action issues without inventing a JS hook system.
Sander 9:29 am on May 31, 2017

Personally, it seems to me that the big issue is that people are confusing WordPress the CMS Framework (.org) with WordPress the Web Product (.com).

It makes total sense for a Web Product such as WordPress.comWordPress.com An online implementation of WordPress code that lets you immediately access a new WordPress environment to publish your content. WordPress.com is a private company owned by Automattic that hosts the largest multisite in the world. This is arguably the best place to start blogging if you have never touched WordPress before. https://wordpress.com/ to incorporate a frontend framework into everything it does to create a ‘modern web’ experience here. This is because the target audience are the end-user customers setting up a blogblog (versus network, site).

However, from a CMS Framework perspective it makes a lot more sense to provide extension interfaces instead, whether it is the REST APIREST API The REST API is an acronym for the RESTful Application Program Interface (API) that uses HTTP requests to GET, PUT, POST and DELETE data. It is how the front end of an application (think “phone app” or “website”) can communicate with the data store (think “database” or “file system”) https://developer.wordpress.org/rest-api/. or the filters / actions that WordPress is so well known for, and let the target audience (which are developer integrators creating a blog, website or Web Product) to use whatever frontend frameworks they prefer.

The way the wind is blowing currently all developers need to skill up as frontend framework developers so they can build on top of features that are build for WordPress the Web Product but incorporated into the CMS framework. This is a major source of the dissatisfaction I hear about.

A possible way out would be for frontend features to decouple from the WordPress coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress. framework and be bundled as ‘installed by default’ plugins. Then wordpress.orgWordPress.org The community site where WordPress code is created and shared by the users. This is where you can download the source code for WordPress core, plugins and themes as well as the central location for community conversations and organization. https://wordpress.org/ integrators can choose to build on top of the core framework or on top of the bundled plugins if they want to use whatever frontend framework is required.

Again this is my personal opinion being a full stack developer for a decade and a half.
- J.D. Grimes 12:44 pm on May 31, 2017
  
  I’ve been thinking something similar, but I don’t think that the REST APIREST API The REST API is an acronym for the RESTful Application Program Interface (API) that uses HTTP requests to GET, PUT, POST and DELETE data. It is how the front end of an application (think “phone app” or “website”) can communicate with the data store (think “database” or “file system”) https://developer.wordpress.org/rest-api/. yet supports the features necessary, nor is the adminadmin (and super admin) sufficiently decoupled from the rest of WordPress coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress.. I think it might be worth the effort to put in the work to prepare them for decoupling though. If I was building a CMS from scratch, I envision that this is how I’d do it.
  
  The one question it raises though, is “what about plugins?” Plugins also provide UIs, so if core’s backend can have several different UIs as extensions, how to plugins work into that, especially plugins designed to modify the UIUI User interface? An underlying declarative framework would have to be used. Something similar to ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/., perhaps? 🙂
LittleBigThings (Csaba) 10:03 am on May 31, 2017
First of all, thanks for the effort of making WordPress more modern and future-proof.

I would like to throw in my 2 cents to the discussion “ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/. vs. VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/.”.

I think that 2 things (or cents ;-)) that should definitely be considered are ease of adaption/use and backwards compatibility in the future. Because these are coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress. values of WordPress and IMHO the main reasons of WordPress’ growing popularity. But this has already been said and explained well in a previous post about the discussion and in the SlackSlack Slack is a Collaborative Group Chat Platform https://slack.com/. The WordPress community has its own Slack Channel at https://make.wordpress.org/chat/. meeting.

I would like to add these 3 questions:
- What if I happen to build a web app using WordPress as an application platform (containing React) that may compete with Facebook? I know, wishful thinking, but anyway: what would this mean for my web app in light of React’s possible licensing ‘issue’?
- What would the adaption of any of these frameworks mean for the framework itself? Especially for VueJS. It has been said that it might lack future support/evolution, but wouldn’t this lead to much more contributors and quick adaption? We might make WordPress’ own Vue based on Vue or determine and lead Vue’s future…
- What framework would we choose if we’d have this discussion within 3 years in the future? No one knows, but probably not React or Vue. There will be a much better, quicker, smoother, fancier, … alternative. Just look at Backbone, it served us well and now it’ll progressively be left behind. Unless the framework we choose now adapts to WordPress’ needs in the future and keeps evolving with the ever-evolving web/app world, just like WordPress does.
- Cameron Terry 11:22 am on May 31, 2017
  
  What if I happen to build a web app using WordPress as an application platform (containing ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/.) that may compete with Facebook?
  
  I would say it’s quite relevant actually. Not so sure about WordPress, but this could definitely affect the BuddyPress.
  
  I would say anyone looking in that space may perceive BuddyPress as a potential alternative / rival to Facebook Workplace.
  
  And if BuddyPress is in the competing space, would that in turn affect the licensing for WordPress itself?
  
  Could it be mitigated if you can replace React.js with another framework? That could pose some technical challenges as then you would have to leave WordPress capable of running without it or with another library.
  
  But that would fly in the face of the philosophy, “Decisions, not Options”, in my estimation.
  - J.D. Grimes 12:49 pm on May 31, 2017
    
    Yes, I immediately thought, “wouldn’t that eliminate BuddyPress?” Of course, I am not a lawyer. But I think that this absolutely ought to be addressed by one before this decision is made. Until the precise effects of Reacts licensing are cleared up, I can’t see how the discussion can really proceed.
    - John James Jacoby 5:50 pm on May 31, 2017
      
      I don’t believe the patent clause included with ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/. to be anymore risky to BuddyPress than it is to other plugins, themes, or WordPress itself.
      
      If I understand the patent clause correctly, it is effectively a patent retaliation clause intended to protect both Facebook and users of React from someone saying “this patented React-based thing looks like that patented React-based thing.”
      
      Because of the nature of the GPLGPL GNU General Public License. Also see copyright license., neither WordPress nor BuddyPress have nor hold any software patents of their own, so there will never be a patent dispute of the above nature. Hence, the BSD license’s default freedoms generally always apply.
      
      The problem I have with the license is that it casts a very, very wide net in terms of how “you or any of your subsidiaries, corporate affiliates or agents” remains undefined and without practical examples in the clause.
      
      If +75k plugins & themes qualify as “subsidiaries” then I’d conclude we are all at relative risk. It’s plausible someone patented some bundled aspect of their pluginPlugin A plugin is a piece of software containing a group of functions that can be added to a WordPress website. They can extend functionality or add new features to your WordPress websites. WordPress plugins are written in the PHP programming language and integrate seamlessly with WordPress. These can be free in the WordPress.org Plugin Directory https://wordpress.org/plugins/ or can be cost-based plugin from a third-party or theme technology, and it’s plausible they’d want to defend that patent if Facebook builds something that this author believes illegally copies their technology.
      
      One bad apple spoils the bunch, but I don’t think that “subsidiary” is the same as “derivative” the way we think of it in regards to the GPL, and the likelihood of any of the above happening is small.
      
      I think it’s probably a non-issue, but I’m not a patent attorney and I’m usually wrong about lots of things. 🙂
      
      —
      
      More GPL patent reading (GPLv3 specific, but relevant): https://fsfe.org/campaigns/gplv3/patents-and-gplv3.en.html
      - J.D. Grimes 6:19 pm on May 31, 2017
        
        Yeah, I’ve been trying to research this a little bit more, and it seems to me that the main concern would be for people building things with WordPress, and they might just be unable to use WordPress’s ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/.-powered UIs if they ended up in a dispute with Facebook. I don’t think in most cases it would affect WordPress itself or the rest of the community. I think the most probable issue that would arise from this is that some patent holders (and other people, too) might be discouraged from using or contributing to WordPress, perhaps even regardless of whether they truly have anything to fear here.
    - Cameron Terry 7:29 am on June 1, 2017
      
      Took a while before I stumbled upon this, but this would seem to render my comment / question redundant;
      
      Does the additional patent grant in the Facebook BSD+Patents license terminate if I create a competing product?
      
      No.
      
      As @johnjamesjacoby said, it would appear to be an non-issue. Even for BuddyPress which could be perceived as a rival in some respects.
      - J.D. Grimes 12:20 pm on June 1, 2017
        
        Yeah. I think that people’s logic was that the patent license does terminate if you end up in court with Facebook over the patents themselves…which is most likely to happen if you are a Facebook competitor, especially since they can land you in court by suing you if they wanted to (and you’d lose the patent grant if you counter sue them over the software patents). So a competitor is perhaps most likely to tangle with them, but it isn’t as simple as “if you are a competitor you’ll loose the patent grants.” You have to assume that Facebook is going to troll you, or that you’re going to sue them for patent infringement related to the software.
        
        So it probably ~~isn’t~~ shouldn’t be a concern for anybody. Except that people believe Facebook is a troll, and/or are simply wary of them no matter what.
- J.D. Grimes 12:52 pm on May 31, 2017
  
  Your final point about evolving state of JSJS JavaScript, a web scripting language typically executed in the browser. Often used for advanced user interfaces and behaviors. frameworks is something that bugs me also. This seems like almost the worst possible time to choose a framework, because no matter what we choose we’ll likely end up losing.
  
  However, this is where the argument of choosing something that sticks as close to the language as possible comes in. If we choose something that is basically just JS, rather than its own templating language, then we will be in fairly good shape no matter what happens. At the very least, we’ll know the syntax of JS itself, not just Shiny Framework 1.0.
  
  This is also why I’d like to see more discussion of Web Components, etc., though I’m not a JS developer myself and so know almost nothing about it. 🙂
- John James Jacoby 2:52 pm on May 31, 2017
  
  With my recent government service experience, I’ve found myself in the position of needing to decipher many conflicting laws and ordinances, so I’ll offer up my non-patent-attorney opinion on this.
  
  Here’s the text in question as it’s written today:
  The license granted hereunder will terminate, automatically and without notice, if you (or any of your subsidiaries, corporate affiliates or agents) initiate directly or indirectly, or take a direct financial interest in, any Patent Assertion: (i) against Facebook or any of its subsidiaries or corporate affiliates, (ii) against any party if such Patent Assertion arises in whole or in part from any software, technology, product or service of Facebook or any of its subsidiaries or corporate affiliates, or (iii) against any party relating to the Software. Notwithstanding the foregoing, if Facebook or any of its subsidiaries or corporate affiliates files a lawsuit alleging patent infringement against you in the first instance, and you respond by filing a patent infringement counterclaim in that lawsuit against that party that is unrelated to the Software, the license granted hereunder will not terminate under section (i) of this paragraph due to such counterclaim.
  A “Necessary Claim” is a claim of a patent owned by Facebook that is necessarily infringed by the Software standing alone.
  A “Patent Assertion” is any lawsuit or other action alleging direct, indirect, or contributory infringement or inducement to infringe any patent, including a cross-claim or counterclaim.
  
  My rough English Translationtranslation The process (or result) of changing text, words, and display formatting to support another language. Also see localization, internationalization.:
  
  If you (or anyone you associate with in/directly) decide to (or financially endorse) a lawsuit against Facebook (or any of it’s in/direct associates) for infringing on any patent (including cross/counter claims) your BSD license for ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/. is void.
  
  Conversely, if Facebook sues you for patent infringement and/or you countersue about an unrelated matter, your license will not be revoked.
  
  —
  
  My loose interpretation (without any formal law education):
  
  If WordPress, BuddyPress, bbPressbbPress Free, open source software built on top of WordPress for easily creating forums on sites. https://bbpress.org., GlotPress, or any of the +75k plugins & themes in the world ever decides that Facebook violated one of their patents, we are all at relative risk.
  
  TL;DR – I am probably wrong, but that’s my take.
  - jteague 4:04 pm on May 31, 2017
    
    Unlike Google’s patent grant on projects like Go and Polymer that only seeks to hold Google harmless against legal actions by users of it’s patented software, Facebook’s clause runs far beyond that because FB could terminate the BSD license instantly if say, VMware (or some other vendor) initiated a patent infringement against FB. That was the assessment of our counsel. She advised against using ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/.. A shame because React is a great project.
  - Adam Silverstein 6:37 pm on May 31, 2017
    
    @johnjamesjacoby my own questions around licensing led me to check out Preact. It’s tiny, does all the important stuff from ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/., and comes patent clause free (and MIT licensed).
    
    I also find the project’s goals align well with WordPress: https://preactjs.com/about/project-goals
    - John James Jacoby 6:52 pm on May 31, 2017
      
      Until we have new information, this seems like our winner.
    - chatmandesign 7:02 pm on May 31, 2017
      
      Has this been benchmarked against Inferno? Sounds like they’re pretty similar. Preact is apparently half the size, but Inferno also claims to be almost absurdly fast, which is why I wonder about the benchmarks.
      
      Also, while neither of these libraries claim a patent clause themselves, if they’re re-implementing large portions of the ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/. APIAPI An API or Application Programming Interface is a software intermediary that allows programs to interact with each other and share data in limited, clearly defined ways., how sure are we that whatever Facebook patents apply to React wouldn’t cover the features in these libraries as well? Seems like a discussion that needs to be had with a patent attorney.
      - J.D. Grimes 7:18 pm on May 31, 2017
        
        Benchmarks touted by Inferno: http://stefankrause.net/js-frameworks-benchmark4/webdriver-ts/table.html
        
        J.D. Grimes 7:30 pm on May 31, 2017
        
        Newer set of benchmarks: http://www.stefankrause.net/wp/?p=431#more-431
        
        chatmandesign 8:05 pm on May 31, 2017
        
        Thanks. This looks like the relevant takeaway:
        
        Of the reactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/. clones preact lives up to its promise of being a faster react implementation. React-lite fails to deliver that promise. Inferno is extremely fast – at least when a few extra knobs are pushed.
        
        Vue.js is the fastest of the big three modern frameworks although not by a large margin. It starts faster than both angular and react and shows little weakness.
J.D. Grimes 12:34 pm on May 31, 2017

Thank you @aduth for a well structured and judicious summary of the chat. I wasn’t sure if that was even possible. 🙂

I do not have experience with any JSJS JavaScript, a web scripting language typically executed in the browser. Often used for advanced user interfaces and behaviors. frameworks other than Backbone, but going into the chat I was leaning toward VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/.. The chat has given me a greater appreciation for the arguments in favor of ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/. though, and I think that the argument about it being closer to the language is particularly effective. The fact that Vue is less coupled to the syntax of JS itself, and thus has (and has used) the freedom to break things, is a significant reason for pause, IMO.

I actually find the willingness to balance other arguments, like maintainability, against approachability, refreshing. I often feel that the WP community prioritizes approachability above maintainability to a point where everybody suffers. Something needs to be approachable, but if it isn’t maintainable in the long run, then it doesn’t really benefit those that are able to learn it much.

One thing that is still a little bit surprising to me is the degree to which this is being framed as a decision that is mainly about coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress.. Of course plugins will still be able to use whatever framework they want, just as they do now. However, what core chooses to use will, and ideally should, have an affect on the community as a whole. I, for one, will learn and use whatever core chooses, both in my plugins, and so that I can contribute back to core. Others at the meeting expressed the same sentiment. And this is coming from seasoned developers. While there is talk of “use whatever is best for the given app”, newbies have no idea how to make that decision, so we have to expect that to a large degree they are going to follow core’s lead as well. And really, this is something that we want to encourage. The more people that learn and use the framework in core, the larger the pool of potential core contributorsCore Contributors Core contributors are those who have worked on a release of WordPress, by creating the functions or finding and patching bugs. These contributions are done through Trac. https://core.trac.wordpress.org.. So while core’s choice doesn’t restrict pluginPlugin A plugin is a piece of software containing a group of functions that can be added to a WordPress website. They can extend functionality or add new features to your WordPress websites. WordPress plugins are written in the PHP programming language and integrate seamlessly with WordPress. These can be free in the WordPress.org Plugin Directory https://wordpress.org/plugins/ or can be cost-based plugin from a third-party and theme developers, it certainly will have a profound affect on what they choose nonetheless, and this can’t be ignored.

I think that one aspect of it which maybe hasn’t been thought about yet is the fact that not every plugin just wants to introduce its own adminadmin (and super admin) screens that it can build however it wants. Sometimes plugins have a primary purpose of modifying the behavior of core admin screens. In these cases, it is usually going to be far easier, and perhaps even necessary, for the plugin dev to use the framework core is using.

Along those same lines, because of the extensibleExtensible This is the ability to add additional functionality to the code. Plugins extend the WordPress core software. nature of WordPress, whatever framework is chosen will need to be highly hackable, so that a plugin developer can easily change just about anything that he wants to. Otherwise I think that we’re going to see a lot of people disappointed by this.
- Mike Schinkel 11:41 pm on May 31, 2017
  
  Sometimes plugins have a primary purpose of modifying the behavior of coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress. adminadmin (and super admin) screens. In these cases, it is usually going to be far easier, and perhaps even necessary, for the pluginPlugin A plugin is a piece of software containing a group of functions that can be added to a WordPress website. They can extend functionality or add new features to your WordPress websites. WordPress plugins are written in the PHP programming language and integrate seamlessly with WordPress. These can be free in the WordPress.org Plugin Directory https://wordpress.org/plugins/ or can be cost-based plugin from a third-party dev to use the framework core is using.
  
  That is effectively what I posted above, which is that modifying or extending a core component is the real issue here that people are objecting to without (it seems to me) actually realizing that is why they are so concerned.
  
  So a best next step forward is for those who are advocating ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/. to show how modification and extension of a core component will be made possible, and the same for those who are advocating VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/.. For example, how would one modify and extend GutenbergGutenberg The Gutenberg project is the new Editor Interface for WordPress. The editor improves the process and experience of creating new content, making writing rich content much simpler. It uses ‘blocks’ to add richness rather than shortcodes, custom HTML etc. https://wordpress.org/gutenberg/ to the same extent we can currently modify and extend the post edit screen?
  
  I think addressing this concern will inform the better choice of framework for core far better than continued bikeshedding.
  - rheinardkorf 1:15 am on June 2, 2017
    
    I had a bit of a dive into GutenbergGutenberg The Gutenberg project is the new Editor Interface for WordPress. The editor improves the process and experience of creating new content, making writing rich content much simpler. It uses ‘blocks’ to add richness rather than shortcodes, custom HTML etc. https://wordpress.org/gutenberg/ and decided to extend it using a pluginPlugin A plugin is a piece of software containing a group of functions that can be added to a WordPress website. They can extend functionality or add new features to your WordPress websites. WordPress plugins are written in the PHP programming language and integrate seamlessly with WordPress. These can be free in the WordPress.org Plugin Directory https://wordpress.org/plugins/ or can be cost-based plugin from a third-party. To see if I would be able to create a custom blockBlock Block is the abstract term used to describe units of markup that, composed together, form the content or layout of a webpage using the WordPress editor. The idea combines concepts of what in the past may have achieved with shortcodes, custom HTML, and embed discovery into a single consistent API and user experience..
    
    The team has done a great job for creating a wrapper that allows me to use code like `wp.blocks.registerBlock` and supplying it with a block slug and then the block as a jsonJSON JSON, or JavaScript Object Notation, is a minimal, readable format for structuring data. It is used primarily to transmit data between a server and web application, as an alternative to XML. object. Thats nice, however, in the json there are the edit and save methods which really require ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/. to be useful. Especially the save method that expects the returning element to be a React component.
    
    So yes, it is possible to extend with a 3rd party. But, it has to play nice with React. To the credit of the Gutenberg team they have added wp.element.createElement() which is effectively React.createElement(), so it is possible to use ES5 without a build process. But assumes React knowledge.
    
    My understanding is that wp.element.createElement() was put in place in lieu of a framework not being chosen yet. But eventually (if React goes in) you could just supply a React component.
    
    Which kind of moots the whole framework interoperability. Whatever goes into coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress. is what is going to be required to extend. Especially if adminadmin (and super admin) follows Gutenberg.
    - andreasnrb 7:01 am on June 5, 2017
      
      They have removed the wrapper functionality.
chatmandesign 6:13 pm on May 31, 2017

I’d like to share some thoughts, from my perspective as a full-time professional developer of WordPress-powered websites, primarily for business clients. I’ve only read the post and comments, so apologies if any of this was already covered in the original SlackSlack Slack is a Collaborative Group Chat Platform https://slack.com/. The WordPress community has its own Slack Channel at https://make.wordpress.org/chat/. chat.

First, there’s an issue related to this discussion that I haven’t seen anyone directly address (though @pacifika and @jdgrimes hint at it above): With on-going improvements to the REST APIREST API The REST API is an acronym for the RESTful Application Program Interface (API) that uses HTTP requests to GET, PUT, POST and DELETE data. It is how the front end of an application (think “phone app” or “website”) can communicate with the data store (think “database” or “file system”) https://developer.wordpress.org/rest-api/. and increasing use of JavaScriptJavaScript JavaScript or JS is an object-oriented computer programming language commonly used to create interactive effects within web browsers. WordPress makes extensive use of JS for a better user experience. While PHP is executed on the server, JS executes within a user’s browser. https://www.javascript.com/. in the Adminadmin (and super admin), WordPress is slowly but surely moving toward decoupling the front end from the backend. No, we’re not there yet, but when fully realized this modular approach will turn the Admin into a client. And whatever framework the bundled Admin client is written in, some developers will love it, some developers will hate it—and those developers will be welcome to write their own Admin client in their preferred framework.

Additionally, let’s not act like building the Admin using a JavaScript framework that does things in its own non-vanilla way that may become deprecated as new versions are released is anything new; jQuery & Backbone are both used in the Admin already, and the same problems apply to them (anyone still remember .bind/.live?). The truth is, with the increasing popularity of ES2015, even so-called “vanilla JavaScript” isn’t all that stable. Staying up-to-date with new/deprecated features already is, and will continue to be, an important part of maintaining the Admin no matter what we go with. So that can’t be a major factor in this decision.

A few people have mentioned build processes in this thread, and mentioning ES2015 also raises the question: should WordPress development require a preprocessor/build process of some kind? It’s hard to get good statistics, but what I can find suggests the large majority of web developers (one survey reports ~86%) are already using one of some kind anyway, so this shouldn’t be a major factor in the decision either.

I’ve seen some questioning whether we should use a framework at all, rather than sticking with “vanilla JavaScript.” The problem with using vanilla JSJS JavaScript, a web scripting language typically executed in the browser. Often used for advanced user interfaces and behaviors. here is that there are really only two approaches to doing it: One is to write code ad hoc on a case-by-case basis, which inevitably results in an inconsistent, poorly documented mess of spaghetti code; I hope I don’t have to explain to anyone why that’s a bad idea. The other approach is to plan for expected needs and build a documented system of re-usable pieces with a standardized APIAPI An API or Application Programming Interface is a software intermediary that allows programs to interact with each other and share data in limited, clearly defined ways., in order to produce clean, consistent code. Except that once you’ve done that, you’re not really coding vanilla any more, because you’ve built your own custom framework.

So using a framework of some kind is pretty much unavoidable. While we could make a new one just for WP-Admin, it doesn’t make sense to divert the WordPress community’s limited resources into reinventing the wheel when there are so many excellent, battle-tested options out there that already have thriving development communities of their own. In short, arguing for vanilla JS is really arguing for either spaghetti code or inventing our own JS framework, and both are pretty clearly bad options.

This brings us to the question of which JS framework to use. Though there are a ton of options available these days, a tiny handful rise to the top of comparisons again and again: Generally, these are Angular, ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/., and VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/..

Benchmarks establish Angular as the slowest and most bloated codebase, and general community consensus seems to be that it is also the most opinionated and difficult to learn. It’s a technology on the decline as developers increasingly move away from it, usually to one of the other big two. So for anyone who’s been wondering, that’s how we get to the conclusion that the Slack chat evidently came to: As The State Of JavaScript so succinctly put it, “React and Vue are in a class of their own.” They are probably the only options worthy of serious discussion.

They’re both robust frameworks with excellent performance and thriving communities. They do things a little differently, but at the end of the day, there’s little objective reason to pick one over the other from a technology standpoint. It comes down to personal preference, and that’s pretty divided in the community at large.

While I agree with those who have noted that this will affect pluginPlugin A plugin is a piece of software containing a group of functions that can be added to a WordPress website. They can extend functionality or add new features to your WordPress websites. WordPress plugins are written in the PHP programming language and integrate seamlessly with WordPress. These can be free in the WordPress.org Plugin Directory https://wordpress.org/plugins/ or can be cost-based plugin from a third-party developers to an extent, ultimately the CoreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress. team is going to spend more time in the guts of the Admin than the rest of us ever will, which makes this primarily a Core issue. And if they strongly prefer React and feel they’ll be more efficient working with it, that’s about the best argument anyone can make for one framework over the other. Whichever way WordPress Core goes, about half the community will be unhappy, but they’ll/we’ll just have to suck it up and learn the selected framework—that is, until the Admin is fully decoupled and each side gets to build their own preferred version.

That said, if the suggestions that patent/licensing restrictions affect React turn out to be true—and I’ll leave that question for the WordPress Foundation’s lawyers—then it absolutely would not be compatible with the open sourceOpen Source Open Source denotes software for which the original source code is made freely available and may be redistributed and modified. Open Source **must be** delivered via a licensing model, see GPL. licensing philosophy behind WordPress. And while a React clone like Inferno might be an alternative, if React is affected by patent issues there’s a good chance the same issue may apply to other libraries that implement the same tech/API. If that does turn out to be the case, no matter how much the Core team might prefer React, Vue would be the only viable option.

(For my part I’ve poked at both, and I never really got anywhere with React, but I built a small prototype app relatively easily with Vue. I’m inclined to agree that Vue is more approachable to, shall we say, less-hardcore JS developers, and my personal preference would probably be to go in that direction. I don’t think that’s especially relevant to any of my points above, but I mention it anyway in the spirit of full disclosure.)
- J.D. Grimes 6:47 pm on May 31, 2017
  
  In regard to build processes:
  
  Something that I think many people (including myself) missed, but that was mentioned at the chat, is that WordPress has already decided to move toward Webpack (#40894). This means that regardless of the decision here there is going to be a build process (at least for existing code, which is already being built with Browserify anyway).
  - Adam Silverstein 1:59 pm on June 1, 2017
    
    We already have a build process for coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress. development. The main point here is that currently you can do debugging/development and testing with (JavaScriptJavaScript JavaScript or JS is an object-oriented computer programming language commonly used to create interactive effects within web browsers. WordPress makes extensive use of JS for a better user experience. While PHP is executed on the server, JS executes within a user’s browser. https://www.javascript.com/.) code changes _without_ running the build because we are only concatenating code. That may not be true in the future if we rely on transpilation.
- Sander 7:48 pm on May 31, 2017
  
  “And whatever framework the bundled Adminadmin (and super admin) client is written in, some developers will love it, some developers will hate it—and those developers will be welcome to write their own Admin client in their preferred framework”
  
  This is a straw man argument of course because to keep an alternative admin competitive with the bundled admin one would need the same amount of development time dedicated to it.
  
  Otherwise why not fork the WordPress project and add a front end JavaScriptJavaScript JavaScript or JS is an object-oriented computer programming language commonly used to create interactive effects within web browsers. WordPress makes extensive use of JS for a better user experience. While PHP is executed on the server, JS executes within a user’s browser. https://www.javascript.com/. framework to that? Because it’s not feasible and the community for multiple versions of an admin experience isn’t there.
  - chatmandesign 8:52 pm on May 31, 2017
    
    Wikipedia defines a “straw man argument” as “giving the impression of refuting an opponent’s argument, while refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.” I’ll admit that the text you quote from my comment didn’t refute any argument that anyone made, so you’re half right; but that’s only because it wasn’t intended to. It was bringing up a new point that I thought was worth considering. It was, however, followed by several paragraphs of direct refutations to various arguments I have seen people make, so perhaps that led to the intention of my first paragraph being unclear.
    
    In any case, I disagree with you (though I may have been wrong for a completely different reason—see below). You’re making assumptions based on the current Adminadmin (and super admin) implementation that’s so heavily integrated with the backend that building alternative Admin clients simply isn’t feasible. I made it quite clear that I’m talking about a potential future where the Admin has been fully decoupled. You’re comparing apples and oranges.
    
    A better point of reference would be the current state of post editing, which has offered an APIAPI An API or Application Programming Interface is a software intermediary that allows programs to interact with each other and share data in limited, clearly defined ways. for some time, and there are in fact multiple desktop clients available for posting to WordPress blogs. I see no reason to assume the same wouldn’t be true for the entire Admin experience if it were properly decoupled. Major aspects of the Admin don’t change that often, and if it had a standard API, that API would likely change even less often. Sure, there would be a fair bit of initial work to create a full client, but I think you’re dramatically overestimating the work necessary to maintain one.
    
    That said: This entire argument is probably moot, as I’ve seen comments from coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress. team members that suggest my assumption that they were actively working toward full decouplement was probably incorrect. That pretty much makes this point an irrelevant hypothetical.
PeterRKnight 9:56 pm on May 31, 2017

I would like to address a couple notions that are being mentioned in a couple places here

On tooling

The argument is made that tooling is now integrated into coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress. development and the argument is also made that the necessity for tooling is merely a reality of modern development.

But I think opinion is quite unanimous in that tooling does raise the barrier to entry. I’m not personally arguing against the integration of tooling into core development. And certainly the point is not to get unnecessarily in the way of core developers being productive and getting on with core development things, or hold back on what is modern development practice.

The very principles of what Open SourceOpen Source Open Source denotes software for which the original source code is made freely available and may be redistributed and modified. Open Source **must be** delivered via a licensing model, see GPL. means have been a major influence on my journey with WordPress. Open Source Software when it is done well is not just the freedom, but the welcome invitation to tinker and learn how something works under the hood. To play with the code. And when tooling becomes a barrier to tinkering with the code, *especially* if the person is a complete amateur, it is unwittingly discouraging people from even trying. This was low barrier to entry that invited me into playing with open source software in the first place.

Despite the considerable thought put into the summary, I think we’re complete missing the point here on this aspect of tooling. This is not about constraining core developers, it is about recognising an important element of OSS that we may be taking for granted.

And it’s a false choice to say we have to pick between modern javascriptJavaScript JavaScript or JS is an object-oriented computer programming language commonly used to create interactive effects within web browsers. WordPress makes extensive use of JS for a better user experience. While PHP is executed on the server, JS executes within a user’s browser. https://www.javascript.com/. development practices or core developer productivity and keeping things easy to tinker with. With ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/. we may be necessitating or pressuring the requirement of setting up tooling for basic tinkering with the code. From touching core code to making simple add-ons or tweaks to a ‘blockBlock Block is the abstract term used to describe units of markup that, composed together, form the content or layout of a webpage using the WordPress editor. The idea combines concepts of what in the past may have achieved with shortcodes, custom HTML, and embed discovery into a single consistent API and user experience.’ in the GutenbergGutenberg The Gutenberg project is the new Editor Interface for WordPress. The editor improves the process and experience of creating new content, making writing rich content much simpler. It uses ‘blocks’ to add richness rather than shortcodes, custom HTML etc. https://wordpress.org/gutenberg/ editor.

It’s also quite clear to me that some of the tooling that is now required in general for web development has a short shelf life. ESM modules will soon be available in all major browsers. The arrival of CSSCSS Cascading Style Sheets. variables reduces the need for CSS preprocessors. HTTPHTTP HTTP is an acronym for Hyper Text Transfer Protocol. HTTP is the underlying protocol used by the World Wide Web and this protocol defines how messages are formatted and transmitted, and what actions Web servers and browsers should take in response to various commands./2 means we may not have to concatenate a whole bunch of scripts and the list goes on. If we don’t have to saddle newcomers with the pressure to setup tooling, then we should be good stewards and be mindful of the ability of being able to open up the simplest text editor and manipulate some code.

Bottom line, we should try to make it as simple as possible for a complete novice to be welcome to muck around, even if its probing the innards of core code.

“Javascript is complicated and we’re building rich client-side experiences now, ergo, a high degree of knowledge as a requirement is unavoidable”

This to me again is missing the point as well. Yes this is different from the usecase where a beginner tweaks a little bit of jQuery to establish some kind of simple effect and is on his way a few hours later, without ever understanding Javascript. And certainly we should encourage true understanding of Javascript. But that journey is long. It matters how easy it is to see results. To me jQuery was quite a masterful thing because people could write immensely bad code but still get the result they wanted. Some of those people go on to get quite interested in code in general and some don’t. While it is important we urge real knowledge of Javascript, we should not discount the value in being able to get results with little knowledge.

And this is why I fall more on the VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/. side because React straight out of the gate requires much more implicit knowledge. How does React work with the styles of component? How is it rendering this stuff? This looks like htmlHTML HyperText Markup Language. The semantic scripting language primarily used for outputting content in web browsers., is it like html, what are the rules? How does it all connect up?

The answers to these questions can be quite easy to someone who is already a little familiar with javascript. Someone on the Tavern noted React was quite easy, but then said they had gone through learning Angular before. Well of course.

What I’m concerned about is the first person who’s just getting their feet wet. At least with Vue, when they are looking at a Vue component, there will be an element of familiarity if they understand HTML even if Javascript is newish to them. And if we’re using CSS inside component files as well, they will recognize the CSS as well. It as close to the normal building blocks of web development as you get. This familiarity, I think, will give people more confidence to try. And it’s nicely compartmentalised in terms of what languages make up a webpage: HTML, CSS and Javascript. That’s easy to reason with.

With React it is less obvious how the html is built, how it differs, what is possible, because even in JSX it looks like some magic is happening. I’m not even sure how CSS development looks like in core with React components so I can’t speak to that. A person needs to be pretty far along in their basic web development knowledge before it sees something familiar in React code.

Whatever framework is chosen, if we keep things simple to get into it will not hinder what is possible or hold us back, but it will certainly invite new people to try to see how things work. This idea that we can deprioritise those kind of criteria because it’s about core developers doing core development is highly contentious to me.

“People will still be able to use their own tools/this affects core development only”

If the blocks APIAPI An API or Application Programming Interface is a software intermediary that allows programs to interact with each other and share data in limited, clearly defined ways. runs with React, it pressures anyone who wants to build a custom block from scratch, extend a block or to simply tinker with native blocks to understand and use React.

And any developer that wants to add functionality to the editing screen and wants to use a different framework, whether it will be Vue, angular, or one of the dozen other frameworks will be discouraged to do so because React is one of the heavier frameworks and adding multiple frameworks to the page to help render components introduces friction not just for the developer, but on the users’s browser. If we can run with something leaner and lighter, we give developers the flexibility that has helped WordPress excel.

Both these examples show that it is incredibly important what libraries and frameworks are chosen in core. To say otherwise is being blind to what helped the pluginPlugin A plugin is a piece of software containing a group of functions that can be added to a WordPress website. They can extend functionality or add new features to your WordPress websites. WordPress plugins are written in the PHP programming language and integrate seamlessly with WordPress. These can be free in the WordPress.org Plugin Directory https://wordpress.org/plugins/ or can be cost-based plugin from a third-party ecosystem thrive.
- Mike Schinkel 5:45 am on June 1, 2017
  
  But I think opinion is quite unanimous in that tooling does raise the barrier to entry.
  
  Not to be pedantic, but think if we have to argue the point then it is, in fact, not unanimous. The opinion is likely in “overwhelmingly in agreement that tooling here raises the barrier to entry”, but it is certainly not unanimous.
  
  That said, I do agree wholeheartedly with your overall premise. 🙂
Morten Rand-Hendriksen 1:34 pm on June 1, 2017

Thank you for the overview of the conversation. I would just like to emphasize some key issues others have brought up and add my voice to them:

1. Whatever framework is chosen will be with us for the long haul. I’ve been told several times it’s almost impossible to get anything done with the media library because so few developers know the complexities of Backbone. This has created a crippling bottleneck, something that must be avoided at all cost here.
2. Framework choices for existing projects (Calypso, GutenbergGutenberg The Gutenberg project is the new Editor Interface for WordPress. The editor improves the process and experience of creating new content, making writing rich content much simpler. It uses ‘blocks’ to add richness rather than shortcodes, custom HTML etc. https://wordpress.org/gutenberg/) are relatively irrelevant in this conversation. They should not guide the decision being made for WP coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress. as those decisions were made for smaller projects, not core, and afaik were not made with the future intent of migrating to core.
3. Considering the proverbial war of JSJS JavaScript, a web scripting language typically executed in the browser. Often used for advanced user interfaces and behaviors. frameworks currently raging in the wider community, it is important to look outside the borders of the WordPress bubble to see what else is going on. Adopting the right framework might mean onboarding new contributors from outside the bubble. Adopting the wrong one could do the opposite. (not saying I know which is right or wrong here. I have no idea).
4. Ease of use and ease of learning is paramount. WordPress is the gateway to web development for millions of people. The barrier is already high, and adopting a framework that is too complex may lead to significant dropoff or plateauing in our community, something that is already an issue.
5. Specifically to ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/.: Facebook has a tendency of suddenly pulling features and shipping breaking changes to their own code base. They are not beholden to us in any way, and we make ourselves wholly reliant on their continued support of the code base were we to choose them. This seems to run counter to the WordPress ideal of endless backwards compatibility.
6. Can we bring some third-party consultants in on this to get an unbiassed opinion?
- Adam Silverstein 1:52 pm on June 1, 2017
  
  it’s almost impossible to get anything done with the media library because so few developers know the complexities of Backbone
  
  Extending/customizing the media manager is challenging because of its lack of documentation and its complex architecture which is partially a result of Backbone’s simplicity . It is not Backbone that is complex, rather it is media.
  - Jon Brown 4:30 pm on June 3, 2017
    
    I think rebuilding the media manager with a JSJS JavaScript, a web scripting language typically executed in the browser. Often used for advanced user interfaces and behaviors. framework would be a better experiment than GutenbergGutenberg The Gutenberg project is the new Editor Interface for WordPress. The editor improves the process and experience of creating new content, making writing rich content much simpler. It uses ‘blocks’ to add richness rather than shortcodes, custom HTML etc. https://wordpress.org/gutenberg/ to see what fits with coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress..
- Jon Brown 4:39 pm on June 3, 2017
  
  . Can we bring some third-party consultants in on this to get an unbiassed opinion?
  
  I’ve thought this too. As much respect as I have for core contributorsCore Contributors Core contributors are those who have worked on a release of WordPress, by creating the functions or finding and patching bugs. These contributions are done through Trac. https://core.trac.wordpress.org. I feel their is too strong of a bias based on Calypso and GutenbergGutenberg The Gutenberg project is the new Editor Interface for WordPress. The editor improves the process and experience of creating new content, making writing rich content much simpler. It uses ‘blocks’ to add richness rather than shortcodes, custom HTML etc. https://wordpress.org/gutenberg/. I don’t know or think “reactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/. is the wrong choice”, just I’m skeptical based on so many voices arguing “this is what we know”, “this is what Calypso used”, rather than “this is the best long term solution because feature/fact/etc”.
  
  They’re all equally intimidating to me personally as a pluginPlugin A plugin is a piece of software containing a group of functions that can be added to a WordPress website. They can extend functionality or add new features to your WordPress websites. WordPress plugins are written in the PHP programming language and integrate seamlessly with WordPress. These can be free in the WordPress.org Plugin Directory https://wordpress.org/plugins/ or can be cost-based plugin from a third-party/theme/site dev. I hack around in JSJS JavaScript, a web scripting language typically executed in the browser. Often used for advanced user interfaces and behaviors. but would not claim more than hobby level understanding of any of the frameworks. I’m prepared to learn one deeply as needed to keep working with WordPress, but wise decisions need to get made sooner rather than later.
Bradley 1:51 pm on June 1, 2017
Learning from the past: Why does Media Library see so few contributions? What lessons can we learn from this to avoid having this conversation again in a few years time, or is that an inevitability?

In my mind this is possibly the most interesting comment made – As a little background, I build bespoke WordPress sites with custom themes & plugins. A while back I looked into the possibilities of extending the media library modal, and whilst I didn’t make use of the research, I think it’s worth talking about the issues I saw as an ‘outsider’ to the coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress. WP team.

Documentation (or lack of): For much of WP core JavaScriptJavaScript JavaScript or JS is an object-oriented computer programming language commonly used to create interactive effects within web browsers. WordPress makes extensive use of JS for a better user experience. While PHP is executed on the server, JS executes within a user’s browser. https://www.javascript.com/. this is virtually non-existent. There is a fair amount of inline documentation, but this is not pulled into the WP reference. Some better resources on the Codex would also alleviate this concern.

Inconsistency: At the moment there are half a dozen features implemented in Backbone, a few with vanilla JSJS JavaScript, a web scripting language typically executed in the browser. Often used for advanced user interfaces and behaviors., a handful more with jQuery. Given that learning Backbone would assist with just a few areas of core it simply is not worthwhile – Going forward how can can we ensure that the technology of choice has enough uses outside of individual components to make learning it a valuable use of time?

Lack of CSSCSS Cascading Style Sheets. hooksHooks In WordPress theme and development, hooks are functions that can be applied to an action or a Filter in WordPress. Actions are functions performed when a certain event occurs in WordPress. Filters allow you to modify certain functions. Arguments used to hook both filters and actions look the same.: As an example, I wanted to hide one of the .media-menu-item items in the media modal, but they all have identical classes – More structured css classes (or ids, attributes etc) would have allowed a front-end developerFront-end developer Front-end web development is the practice of producing HTML, CSS and JavaScript for a website or a web application which a user can view and interact directly. to achieve this task (even if it is not the optimal method to use.)

Lack of hooks in JS: In my mind, this is the big point that needs to be sorted, regardless of what framework is eventually chosen – Without this, or a similar pluginPlugin A plugin is a piece of software containing a group of functions that can be added to a WordPress website. They can extend functionality or add new features to your WordPress websites. WordPress plugins are written in the PHP programming language and integrate seamlessly with WordPress. These can be free in the WordPress.org Plugin Directory https://wordpress.org/plugins/ or can be cost-based plugin from a third-party architecture, developers are essentially locked-in to whatever WP core chooses, which in my mind WordPress has historically done a good job of avoiding.

A few more thoughts on this one:
- I think this feature (and maybe some additional micro-libraries) should be built without a framework to future-proof it and to keep it lightweight for use on the front-end.
- Thought should be given to how this could be improved from the PHPPHP The web scripting language in which WordPress is primarily architected. WordPress requires PHP 5.6.20 or higher hooks system. Mostly very little I think, but I’m sure there are some things people would have done differently given the chance
- The front-end issue is interesting – I think theme developers should be in full control of the front-end & so should not have these sort of libraries forced on them (especially given performance implications), but equally I can see a front-end hooks framework being very helpful for plugins (e.g. WooCommerce). In any case, the enqueueing in WordPress is already good in this regard, so this is more a thinking point, rather than a request anything changes.
—
In any case, good to see this discussion taking place & hopefully these issues can be avoided going forward!
- Adam Silverstein 1:54 pm on June 1, 2017
  
  With regards to JSJS JavaScript, a web scripting language typically executed in the browser. Often used for advanced user interfaces and behaviors. hooksHooks In WordPress theme and development, hooks are functions that can be applied to an action or a Filter in WordPress. Actions are functions performed when a certain event occurs in WordPress. Filters allow you to modify certain functions. Arguments used to hook both filters and actions look the same. in coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress., please have a look at https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/21170 and lend your testing/comments/feedback there.
  - Mark-k 5:27 pm on June 2, 2017
    
    that is nice, but the question is, how exactly it will integrate with reactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/., will be able to intercept and modify messages being send and received? If not, the usefulness of the hook system is limited
    - Bradley 10:55 am on June 3, 2017
      
      I have little experience with ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/., so I’m intrigued why a generic hook library might not work. Do you not think it is possible to have a hook library that is generic enough to work with React, VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/., Vanilla etc without framework-specific modifications?
      - rheinardkorf 12:00 am on June 5, 2017
        
        With ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/. everything has to be a React component. So a “hook” system will have to either inject into existing components or will have to return components. This makes a generic hook system for React near impossible.
        
        Although VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/. also has components, it has more HTMLHTML HyperText Markup Language. The semantic scripting language primarily used for outputting content in web browsers.-like templates. So hooking into this framework does make it a bit easier. Perhaps more so filters than actions, however, Vuex stores has a good pattern for how actions could be implemented with a generic hook system.
        
        A hook system for vanilla JSJS JavaScript, a web scripting language typically executed in the browser. Often used for advanced user interfaces and behaviors. is dead simple. I made one a few years ago for a project and I have seen many others (including a proposal for coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress.) that works in a similar fashion.
      - Mark-k 10:08 am on June 5, 2017
        
        @bradely,the hook system, with the ability to add and remove functionality at runtime, is what make wordpress into what it is.
        
        The same flexibility is hard to achieve when you depend on an external library, for example jquery has events which can be used like hooksHooks In WordPress theme and development, hooks are functions that can be applied to an action or a Filter in WordPress. Actions are functions performed when a certain event occurs in WordPress. Filters allow you to modify certain functions. Arguments used to hook both filters and actions look the same., but they do not have priority, therefor it is undetermined result what happens when there are two event handlers, and this results with coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress. JSJS JavaScript, a web scripting language typically executed in the browser. Often used for advanced user interfaces and behaviors. code like customize being hard to manipulate by plugins.
        
        Therefor it is not enough to have the hook system in JS, to have full benefits from it it has to be integrated in a very low level with the JS framework. If not, there might not be any way to “turn off” pluginPlugin A plugin is a piece of software containing a group of functions that can be added to a WordPress website. They can extend functionality or add new features to your WordPress websites. WordPress plugins are written in the PHP programming language and integrate seamlessly with WordPress. These can be free in the WordPress.org Plugin Directory https://wordpress.org/plugins/ or can be cost-based plugin from a third-party and theme functionality on browser side, something that everybody takes for granted when developing WP code.
        
        Bradley 4:03 pm on June 6, 2017
        
        Thanks for clarifying some of my misconceptions, although unfortunately I now have even more concerns about both ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/. & VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/. 🙁
        
        With React everything has to be a React component. So a “hook” system will have to either inject into existing components or will have to return components. This makes a generic hook system for React near impossible.
        
        I understand that React knowledge will be required to change react components, but I don’t really see why React components could not be passed through a generic hook library, like proposed in https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/21170. Again, I’m not sure exactly how a React component is represented, but does it expose anything public that could be modified?
        
        Additionally, I would assume JSX templates could be passed through filters without too much difficultly. Presumably some simple on/off style filters also won’t need any react knowledge.
        
        Vuex stores has a good pattern for how actions could be implemented with a generic hook system.
        
        In my mind, this gives Vue a significant advantage in this debate.
        
        The same flexibility is hard to achieve when you depend on an external library, for example jquery has events which can be used like hooksHooks In WordPress theme and development, hooks are functions that can be applied to an action or a Filter in WordPress. Actions are functions performed when a certain event occurs in WordPress. Filters allow you to modify certain functions. Arguments used to hook both filters and actions look the same., but they do not have priority, therefor it is undetermined result what happens when there are two event handlers, and this results with coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress. JSJS JavaScript, a web scripting language typically executed in the browser. Often used for advanced user interfaces and behaviors. code like customize being hard to manipulate by plugins.
        
        I’m not sure why jQuery & a WP hook library cannot be used together. jQuery’s events are a good wrapper around ‘real’ browser events, but less good for actions & filters that are run as part of a developers code. So as an example, here is some commented (& simplified) WooCommerce code:
        
        // This is a browser event, so not a problem to use browser events. //The callback could have wp hooks to allow theme-developer control $( '#add_payment_method' ).on('click', function(){}) //This is the sort of thing that would really benefit from a wp hook system. $( document.body ).trigger( 'init_add_payment_method' );
        
        Therefor it is not enough to have the hook system in JS, to have full benefits from it it has to be integrated in a very low level with the JS framework. If not, there might not be any way to “turn off” pluginPlugin A plugin is a piece of software containing a group of functions that can be added to a WordPress website. They can extend functionality or add new features to your WordPress websites. WordPress plugins are written in the PHP programming language and integrate seamlessly with WordPress. These can be free in the WordPress.org Plugin Directory https://wordpress.org/plugins/ or can be cost-based plugin from a third-party and theme functionality on browser side, something that everybody takes for granted when developing WP code.
        
        This seems to indicate the only solution would be some sort of bespoke framework, whereas it feels like a framework could work with a generic hook library to get the best of both worlds. But equally if a framework has no way for a hook system to fit in, this feels like it would be a real step backwards from the power afforded to WP devs at the moment.
- timph 6:49 am on June 9, 2017
  
  I think lack of documentation is definitely the biggest reason as to why there’s even any discussion being done. I also don’t think adding a javascriptJavaScript JavaScript or JS is an object-oriented computer programming language commonly used to create interactive effects within web browsers. WordPress makes extensive use of JS for a better user experience. While PHP is executed on the server, JS executes within a user’s browser. https://www.javascript.com/. framework is any sort of magical solution to any real issue we have.
  
  I mean look at the past? We had scriptaculiciousinens whatever, and prototype. Prototype wasn’t horrible, in fact it was amazing for the time it came out. A year later we got jQuery, and minds were just blown. Now fast forward to today – you would be hardpressed to mention the word javascript to a novice developer, and not have them immediately use jQuery as a euphemism.
  
  It makes me wonder if the primary push that upset random people about discontinuing older ie version support isn’t a direct result of this. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t develop most things to support old versions, but I have that freedom when I start a project that doesn’t have a requirement set for browser ver and I fully support WordPress for once letting go of some backwards compat.
  
  Learning any framework takes some time, but backbone is what it’s name says it is. It’s just a backbone to give your code a structure. It follows MVC, and ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/.’s developer’s say it’s just the V, but of having used all the frameworks in this discussion on large projects, I don’t feel like they are entirely right lol. Backbone literally shouldn’t take any time to learn because it says “Hey, structure your code like this” and that’s about it. You can update your views easily using events, which is what the majority of pluginPlugin A plugin is a piece of software containing a group of functions that can be added to a WordPress website. They can extend functionality or add new features to your WordPress websites. WordPress plugins are written in the PHP programming language and integrate seamlessly with WordPress. These can be free in the WordPress.org Plugin Directory https://wordpress.org/plugins/ or can be cost-based plugin from a third-party and theme authors are familiar with in a lot of “non-structured” js using jquery. I think the issue is that people aren’t familiar with writing object oriented javascript, or best practices on writing javascript applications as a whole.
  
  I think the problem with backbone is similar to the problem with procedural PHPPHP The web scripting language in which WordPress is primarily architected. WordPress requires PHP 5.6.20 or higher code in coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress.. The average theme/plugin developer writes procedural. When you first learn PHP you probably learn procedural. It makes more sense to someone learning to do things in an order. OOP code makes you understand reusability importance, and how great inheritance can be. It also is very hard for a novice developer to understand OOP if they have only ever written procedural. Be that as it may, I still know very experienced developers who have only ever written procedural code, and they can’t comprehend OOP one bit. It doesn’t make them bad at their job, but it gets bad if you do both in the same code base! You’re entirely right about inconsistency.
  
  To me the real question is if we pick a javascript framework, then how long will it take for everything to be rewritten and fit into that framework’s opinionated structure. It’s absolutely ridiculous to add more noodles into the spaghetti of code. If we are considering making this sort of move, then go all in or just don’t do it. The last thing we need is more bloat and randomness. There’s tons of brilliant ideas and code in WordPress, but the lack of uniformity it has makes it far less approachable for the average developer to feel like contributing. I would and have contribute to all sorts of opensource projects – if the code is structured and the build is easy. Fitting time to fully comprehend where WordPress decides to jump around to internally from file to file, all the while trying to remember why I was exploring the code in the first place is a daunting task unto itself at times.
  
  On the flip side though, I look at something like the customizerCustomizer Tool built into WordPress core that hooks into most modern themes. You can use it to preview and modify many of your site’s appearance settings., and because it’s well written and structured – I use it. It’s easily one of the most powerful parts developed of WordPress core, and from an end user’s perspective – it’s amazing to them. I’ve seen people who can’t even figure out how to print out a page from Word make changes to a website and content. The JSJS JavaScript, a web scripting language typically executed in the browser. Often used for advanced user interfaces and behaviors. APIAPI An API or Application Programming Interface is a software intermediary that allows programs to interact with each other and share data in limited, clearly defined ways. is easy to use, and most people’s complaints about the customizer are usually related to the space controls have and the UIUI User interface etc, which are all easy enough for a theme developer or plugin developer to manipulate and restructure using the API. We have data in a database, and we manipulate it with and there’s the established design paradigm, MVC. While it may not be the best thing, or the lastest trend, it’s a known and understood development design pattern. Extending features, manipulating the data, change the views, and doing anything else is pretty basic with how backbone recommends (but doesn’t really force) you to structure things. Backbone is also commonly used with jquery for additional functionality, and plays fairly nice with it all in all, which is something that should help it be more approachable than something like Angular which recommends no additional libraries.
  
  The average lifespan of a javascript framework – for the track record – isn’t very long. Something new can and will pop up, and people will continue to have their preference. We put all this emphasis on what new toy we should use. I will say though, I’ve seen many larger companies still continue to choose backbone for specific needs on customized applications if they choose to not go strictly jquery or in rare cases require only vanilla code.
  Maybe instead of heading this direction, we should consider heading the direction of WordPress and how it has always headed.
  
  I get ripped on frequently by other developers because I call and refer to WordPress as a framework. When you compare it with something like Zend, or Laravel, your hardcore PHP developers just kinda chuckle at that sentiment. At the core WordPress made itself into what it is, and yeah there’s a hodgepodge of weird things all over the place, javascript and PHP, but WordPress offers the same functionality as something like Zend to an extent – just not always as OOP-y and pretty. I mean look at Zend\FilterFilter Filters are one of the two types of Hooks https://codex.wordpress.org/Plugin_API/Hooks. They provide a way for functions to modify data of other functions. They are the counterpart to Actions. Unlike Actions, filters are meant to work in an isolated manner, and should never have side effects such as affecting global variables and output.\StripTags compared to wp_kses as one of hundreds of examples between the two.
  
  Why wouldn’t we give consideration to scrapping WordPress core, and replacing it with Laravel? Because WordPress is a framework, our modules/components are plugins – version controlversion control A version control system keeps track of the source code and revisions to the source code. WordPress uses Subversion (SVN) for version control, with Git mirrors for most repositories. happens at that level, it just does a lot of things in a weird way (still wishing for an easier method of using libraries via composer inside of multiple plugins without conflictconflict A conflict occurs when a patch changes code that was modified after the patch was created. These patches are considered stale, and will require a refresh of the changes before it can be applied, or the conflicts will need to be resolved. without having to write my own versioning checks on libraries!), but it also always gives consideration to backwards compatibility for the one person who we ALL do this for – the end users who know nothing. Upgrading from Zend 1.12 to 3? Have fun with that 🙂 Upgrading from WordPress 3.9 to latest stable and you don’t wind up having to rewrite your entire application or scrap your site for a new one? That’s real love for the user right there.
  
  There’s all this talk about templates and rendering on the front end, but hey we already have that. No one uses it. We include underscores – which should really be replaced by lodash by now. In fact vuejs even uses lodash. When all is said in done, these are all just abstractions upon what we already have at our disposal. We don’t just inherit a framework, we also inherit the 100’s of dependencies each of those javascript frameworks drag along side with it. Those dependencies all have their preferences, from the developers who might have created them. To me that makes react more solid of a choice considering the majority of it is developed by a single company. The javascript world is innovative, but it feels like adding an additional layer on top of a proven and solid foundation is providing no benefit towards the goal of creating something that is stable and backwards compatible. I’m 100% for using either of the js frameworks, but I can easily do that now in plugins or themes – though more endpoints provided by core would be nice too! In fact, if I wanted, I could develop my entire application in node and deliver to my client without anything having to do with WordPress. I choose to use WordPress though because what it offers to the end user is the trust in knowing they are on a proven platform that typically won’t cause them many issues.
  
  I think if anything WordPress should focus on building out their own javascript framework. Take what is learned from the javascript world, and stop being so timid in progression. Don’t support a PHP version that died 6+ years ago. It honestly sounds more or less like the whole reason for packaging yet another framework into WordPress is because some people think it’s cool, but it literally doesn’t have any impact to the end user. We could write the same things with or without it. We can further abstract out an underscores/lodash template to be arbitrary elements so it looks and feels more like htmlHTML HyperText Markup Language. The semantic scripting language primarily used for outputting content in web browsers. – but I mean who cares that much about it?
  
  We felt the need at somepoint to introduce our own template syntax to provide mustache styles:
  
  {{{ data.post_content }}}
  
  Instead of the default underscore template syntax:
  
  So why is how the template code looks really a big deal to anyone that it should be like:
  
  Especially when anyone is hardly using it. Even themes I have reviewed when implementing customizer options all seem to be content just doing it with the PHP api in procedural code. Often times instead of providing better user experiences by using the js api for live reloads they simply do refresh so they don’t have to write javascript. It’s not the javascript framework, it’s not the API, it’s the developers who won’t “learn javascript deeply” as that seems to be the saying that goes around here.
  
  There’s definitely use for databindings in the templates, but really – I doubt most theme authors or plugin developers will adopt most of it. The ability has been there for quite some time to have a javascript powered theme or plugin – and we barely have seen anything surface. Sure several “big name” WP agencies give presentations and talks about it all and how it will change the face of the world and it’s the big thing, but didn’t the first rest-api theme just finally come into the repo recently and has tons of issues and isn’t even considered production ready?
  
  I would much rather see solidarity of the backend first, a fully support REST APIREST API The REST API is an acronym for the RESTful Application Program Interface (API) that uses HTTP requests to GET, PUT, POST and DELETE data. It is how the front end of an application (think “phone app” or “website”) can communicate with the data store (think “database” or “file system”) https://developer.wordpress.org/rest-api/. across all the components, more unity in the codebase for both PHP and JS, and then everyone come back to visit what the right decision is.
  
  *It’s not the framework you use, it’s how you use it.*
  
  As simple as that.
  - timph 6:50 am on June 9, 2017
    
    and shame on me for not wrapping my code in code blocks 🙂
davidshq 12:43 am on June 4, 2017

As some others have voiced, I’m concerned about the ease with which the average WP’er will be able to create/maintain/extend functionality if we implement a framework like ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/. or VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/.…

I don’t know nearly enough about these topics, but I fear that the JSJS JavaScript, a web scripting language typically executed in the browser. Often used for advanced user interfaces and behaviors. surge as well as its many frameworks, etc. is not all that it promises to be.
rheinardkorf 11:46 pm on June 4, 2017

A very timely article by Maximilian Schwarzmüller (a predominantly Angular developer, but with a love of JSJS JavaScript, a web scripting language typically executed in the browser. Often used for advanced user interfaces and behaviors. frameworks). He takes a look at Angular vs ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/. vs VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/..

The nice thing I like about this article is that although he has a slight slant toward Angular he tries his best to be objective.

https://academind.com/articles/javascript/angular-vs-reactjs-vs-vuejs/
evanyou 2:33 am on June 5, 2017
Author of VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/. here and I’m glad to see an open and candid discussion around the choice. I’m not going to avoid making arguments on why you should pick Vue because I’m obviously biased, but there are a few potential misunderstanding that I can hopefully clarify:

(ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/. is a pattern) emphasizing declarative rendering, one-way data flow

This is true for Vue as well:
- Declarative rendering is all about declaratively mapping state changes to DOM updates. Both templates and JSX render functions achieve the same goal.
- Vue’s components follow the simple rules of “props in, events out” which also strongly encourages one-way data flow.
Embracing JavaScriptJavaScript JavaScript or JS is an object-oriented computer programming language commonly used to create interactive effects within web browsers. WordPress makes extensive use of JS for a better user experience. While PHP is executed on the server, JS executes within a user’s browser. https://www.javascript.com/. the language

The increasing richness of UIUI User interface does NOT necessitate putting everything in JavaScript. On the other hand, just because Vue uses templates by default doesn’t mean it allows people to get by without learning JavaScript properly.

Vue’s templates are compiled into JavaScript render functions under the hood and they are actually closer to JavaScript than to traditional string templating. It’s just a layer of syntax sugar on top of the underlying Virtual DOM representation. Think of JSX as syntax sugar for view representation on top of JSJS JavaScript, a web scripting language typically executed in the browser. Often used for advanced user interfaces and behaviors.; Vue templates are syntax sugar for view representation on top of HTMLHTML HyperText Markup Language. The semantic scripting language primarily used for outputting content in web browsers..

JSX/Raw JS does provide more flexibility when you need to apply direct manipulation of Virtual DOM nodes, this is why Vue also supports render functions. But this is not putting two opposing paradigms under the same tent – it’s simply allowing the user to skip the syntax sugar layer for more control.

This whole “template on top of render functions” design was created specifically for better approachability: users who are more comfortable with HTML and have simpler use cases could use the template, while users who are already familiar of JSX/render functions can leverage the full power of JS.

This would fit pretty nicely for the use of WP coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress.: community users who care about approachability have an easier time getting started, while the core team have access to JSX/render functions for advanced use cases.

Also, many Vue users reported that learning Vue made it much easier to learn and understand React, because they are more similar than different in terms of underlying patterns.

Vue is largely maintained by a single contributor (related: bus factor)

The current codebase is indeed largely developed by me, but in terms of maintenance it’s much more than just me – we have an active core team consisting of members from all over the world. Other contributors have lower commit counts because their contributions are all submitted in the form of PRs and we use the “Squash and commit” feature on GitHubGitHub GitHub is a website that offers online implementation of git repositories that can easily be shared, copied and modified by other developers. Public repositories are free to host, private repositories require a paid subscription. GitHub introduced the concept of the ‘pull request’ where code changes done in branches by contributors can be reviewed and discussed before being merged be the repository owner. https://github.com/ so each PR results in only one commit for the contributor. We’ve merged close to 500 PRs in the core repo alone, and many more across the organization. Other repos under the vuejs organization, e.g. vuex, vue-router, vuejs.org are also largely maintained by dedicated team members.

Both Vue and React offer no-tooling-required options

While this statement is technically true, the usability of React without tooling is questionable: the user would either have to hand-write render functions (inferior developer experience) or include a just-in-time babel + JSX transpilation runtime (unsuitable for production: slow and huge payload). In contrast, the Vue build that ships with the in-browser template compiler is still less than 30kb gzipped and does not incur significant runtime overhead.

Future compatibility: Templating languages tend to have short lifespans.

This begs for some clarification: Vue versioning strictly follows semver. The only time there had been breaking APIAPI An API or Application Programming Interface is a software intermediary that allows programs to interact with each other and share data in limited, clearly defined ways. changes post 1.0 was the 2.0 bump. The template syntax is part of the API so it’s not going to , and in between major version bumps we commit to 100% API backwards compatibility.

We take stability very seriously, so do our community and in-production users, including GitLab, Vice, and some of the biggest internet companies in China.
- rheinardkorf 9:41 am on June 5, 2017
  
  Hi @evanyou,
  
  Thank you so much for taking an interest in our discussions and for clarifying some of the misconceptions about VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/..
  
  As someone who already favoured the adoption of Vue (because I am a fan) I am thrilled that you personally reached out rather than just another Vue fan with their opinions.
  
  I’m sure that you can understand that as a community there are ones who are concerned with how young Vue is and the longevity of a framework with a single author can be a concern.
  
  Other than having others contributing via PRs, is there a plan in place that we can trust Vue’s continuity beyond you as the primary contributor?
- rheinardkorf 11:41 pm on June 5, 2017
  
  Read your comments re this on the WP Tavern article. Thanks!
  (ref: https://wptavern.com/vue-js-creator-evan-you-weighs-in-on-wordpress-javascript-framework-discussion)
- Justin Kopepasah 3:37 am on June 6, 2017
  
  @evanyou,
  
  Very cool of you to take a moment to comment and clarify misconceptions.
  
  I too am a big proponent of VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/. and it is refreshing to see the creator and coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress. developer reach across communities to shed some light within our discussion.
  
  Cheers.
andreasnrb 7:08 am on June 5, 2017

I replaced the Media Library listing very easily with the REST APIREST API The REST API is an acronym for the RESTful Application Program Interface (API) that uses HTTP requests to GET, PUT, POST and DELETE data. It is how the front end of an application (think “phone app” or “website”) can communicate with the data store (think “database” or “file system”) https://developer.wordpress.org/rest-api/. and VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/.. I found Vue much easier to understand and work with than ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/.. When using React I kept getting stuck on stupid things, or not doing things the correct way from the start etc. It was a real hassle to work with I found. Vue was pretty straight forward and I found it easy to integrate with the REST API. I’m not very savy with JSJS JavaScript, a web scripting language typically executed in the browser. Often used for advanced user interfaces and behaviors. but I’m not incompetent either from my perspective I think WP will benefit more and get things done faster when using Vue. I think the pluginPlugin A plugin is a piece of software containing a group of functions that can be added to a WordPress website. They can extend functionality or add new features to your WordPress websites. WordPress plugins are written in the PHP programming language and integrate seamlessly with WordPress. These can be free in the WordPress.org Plugin Directory https://wordpress.org/plugins/ or can be cost-based plugin from a third-party community will also adopt Vue much faster than Backbone was(it never was) and React ever will.
rdytogollc 12:45 am on June 6, 2017

One more thought about the ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/. license restriction…

What if a WordPress user has a blogblog (versus network, site)/website/webapp that currently does not compete with Facebook, but then Facebook later enters user’s business domain in an unforeseen way?

What will that WordPress/React user have to do? Turn off their website?
Lose business? Will they regret building a website with WordPress? Will they feel betrayed when they find out that Open SourceOpen Source Open Source denotes software for which the original source code is made freely available and may be redistributed and modified. Open Source **must be** delivered via a licensing model, see GPL., or more specifically WordPress, appears to have betrayed them?
luistinygod 11:24 pm on June 6, 2017

I really don’t understand why the discussion ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/. x VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/. (or other) is on the basis of what the biggest WP/themes/plugins’ companies have chosen for their internal development one year ago. My feeling is that Vue usage will continue to grow worldwide mainly because it’s easier to learn and to get things done… In one year we’ll see what the market share is… Probably we’ll all be surprised.

Also, for a seasoned JSJS JavaScript, a web scripting language typically executed in the browser. Often used for advanced user interfaces and behaviors. developer it would be almost the same to address the challenges of WordPress coreCore Core is the set of software required to run WordPress. The Core Development Team builds WordPress. in both Vue or React. But the difference is, as Evan You said in the comment above:

This whole “template on top of render functions” design was created specifically for better approachability: users who are more comfortable with HTMLHTML HyperText Markup Language. The semantic scripting language primarily used for outputting content in web browsers. and have simpler use cases could use the template, while users who are already familiar of JSX/render functions can leverage the full power of JS.

This would fit pretty nicely for the use of WP core: community users who care about approachability have an easier time getting started, while the core team have access to JSX/render functions for advanced use cases.

One framework fits all: Vue.
Cadu de Castro Alves 9:55 pm on June 7, 2017

I’m a WordPress Developer for 13 years now. I also have a startup using VueJS in the frontend (desktop and mobile) and a native app built with ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/. Native.

I’d like to share my point of view based on my experience.

Firstly, it’s very clear WordPress is moving from a CMS to a platform. WP REST APIREST API The REST API is an acronym for the RESTful Application Program Interface (API) that uses HTTP requests to GET, PUT, POST and DELETE data. It is how the front end of an application (think “phone app” or “website”) can communicate with the data store (think “database” or “file system”) https://developer.wordpress.org/rest-api/. already allows developers to create anything they want for any device, even though it has a long way to go.

I think React would be better than VueJS because if any pluginPlugin A plugin is a piece of software containing a group of functions that can be added to a WordPress website. They can extend functionality or add new features to your WordPress websites. WordPress plugins are written in the PHP programming language and integrate seamlessly with WordPress. These can be free in the WordPress.org Plugin Directory https://wordpress.org/plugins/ or can be cost-based plugin from a third-party developer wants to create a native mobile version of their plugins, they could build with React Native which is very similar to React. Also, most plugins have their own adminadmin (and super admin) pages.

I’m not so involved with VueJS project and community as I am with WordPress but it’s a good tool.

I don’t know the plans of VueJS developers about mobile apps even though both the desktop and mobile (responsive) version of my startup works very well with VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/..

My point here is all about native mobile apps. I really believe the next big thing will be the emerge of a mobile WordPress ecosystem. Think about “WP mobile apps”, “WP mobile themes” and “WP mobile plugins”.

Back to the topic, I think most of the core contributorsCore Contributors Core contributors are those who have worked on a release of WordPress, by creating the functions or finding and patching bugs. These contributions are done through Trac. https://core.trac.wordpress.org. are experienced developers. I’m sure the learning curve will not be an issue to them.

Finally, taking into account the mobile market is growing very fast, it’s the reason I prefer React (and React Native) over VueJS.
- rheinardkorf 11:48 pm on June 7, 2017
  
  You might find this project interesting. VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/. for mobile: https://weex.apache.org/ backed by Alibaba.
  - Justin Kopepasah 6:17 am on June 8, 2017
    
    @rheinardkorf, you beat me to it.
johnhhorton 3:42 pm on June 8, 2017

The primary reason we chose VueVue Vue (pronounced /vjuː/, like view) is a progressive framework for building user interfaces. https://vuejs.org/. at The Symphony Agency was the ability to dynamically define templates based on async data. My team works in a content heavy shop, meaning the non-developer staff relies heavily on widgetWidget A WordPress Widget is a small block that performs a specific function. You can add these widgets in sidebars also known as widget-ready areas on your web page. WordPress widgets were originally created to provide a simple and easy-to-use way of giving design and structure control of the WordPress theme to the user. areas, ACF fields, customizerCustomizer Tool built into WordPress core that hooks into most modern themes. You can use it to preview and modify many of your site’s appearance settings. options, and TinyMCE. In order to display a post’s asynchronously loaded content in ReactReact React is a JavaScript library that makes it easy to reason about, construct, and maintain stateless and stateful user interfaces. https://reactjs.org/., you have to use dangeroutslySetInnerHmtl. If you want content to contain any sort of React component, you either have to figure out a way to queue up a new React instance within that content(which will be removed on rerender, or somehow split the content between components with a custom parser.

With Vue though, you can take async data from an APIAPI An API or Application Programming Interface is a software intermediary that allows programs to interact with each other and share data in limited, clearly defined ways., and apply that string as the template in a dynamically created content-area component. This allows you to be able to include global Vue components in shortcodes in content anywhere in your site. Want a fancy map wrapper shortcodeShortcode A shortcode is a placeholder used within a WordPress post, page, or widget to insert a form or function generated by a plugin in a specific location on your site.? Not a problem. Want a Vue component to control an in content accordion menu? Still, not an issue.

Example of the Vue side of the solution found in this post:
https://vividdev.com/asynchronously-vue-component-template/

Global components is another reason Vue is amazing for WordPress. Instead of having to include es6 imports all over the place and explicitly make components available where you want to use them (like React), you can simply use Vue.component('component-name', defObject). Registering a component globally makes your independent feature accessible to content output anywhere in the Vue app. This means that, if we could settle on an approach as a community, developers could write plugins to include new Vue components that can work with someone else’s Vue themes or content wrappers.

Example: Shortcode that ouputs
<vuemap lat="..." long=".."></vuemap>
could be the output of a pluginPlugin A plugin is a piece of software containing a group of functions that can be added to a WordPress website. They can extend functionality or add new features to your WordPress websites. WordPress plugins are written in the PHP programming language and integrate seamlessly with WordPress. These can be free in the WordPress.org Plugin Directory https://wordpress.org/plugins/ or can be cost-based plugin from a third-party defined shortcode, and it will work appropriately.

We’re working on a theme that solves a list of major WordPress async issues including:
-Converting relevant WP menu and content links to vue-router links
-In content components(mentioned above)
-Default wp templates
-Custom page templates
-cpts templates
-lazy loading
-caching
-SSR
etc..

Having been working with Vue for a while now in a WordPress environment, I keep trying to go back to React to see how things would be accomplished. Unfortunately, React consistently falls short of what we need. I do like React, and I wouldn’t mind using it, but at the end of the day we chose the right tool for the job. The flexibility and ease of use of VueJs makes it a clear win for the WordPress developer community. React is a fine choice in an environment where the data and output is tightly controlled, but Vue is the only perfect fit for a CMS.

I’m totally open to new solutions for how to approach all of the WordPress specific issues in React, but, for all my efforts, Vue is the only tool that hits all the marks.
luistinygod 2:38 pm on June 27, 2017

https://codeburst.io/why-vue-js-could-make-react-js-irrelevant-in-2018-44af881b81c4