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  • Jen Mylo 7:15 pm on April 21, 2014 Permalink | Log in to leave a Comment
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    GSoC students announced! http://make.wordpress.org/community/2014/04/21/gsoc-students-accepted/

    (core projects are the minority this year, which is why I posted over on the community site under mentorship programs)

     
  • Jen Mylo 5:25 pm on March 10, 2014 Permalink | Log in to leave a Comment
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    GSoC IRC Chats 

    The application period opens today and closes on March 21. Between now and then, we’ll set up a handful of IRC chats starting this Wednesday (We’ll use #wordpress-gsoc so as not to distract from the beta work in -dev, and won’t get too close to the dev chat time-wise) to allow some real-time chatting with potential students about their project ideas.

    All mentors should sign up for at least one time slot so the students will know which chat time will have appropriate mentors in the room. Everyone is welcome to attend these chats, not just mentors.

    I’d like to pick 2 times of day and do the chats on Thursday the 13th, Saturday the 15th, Tuesday the 18th, and Thursday the 20th. 21:00 UTC seems to work well for dev chat, so I’m thinking that could be one of the times, but would like a 2nd time that we could do at least once or twice to make it easier on anyone on Australia/Russia side of the world.

    Mentors: Please leave a comment with which days/times you can be available for chats in IRC. If anyone has an idea for a good 2nd chat time, suggestions welcome.

    Thanks!

     
    • Bryan Petty 6:00 pm on March 10, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      I’ll be at WC Atlanta, leaving the 13th and back on the 16th. I’m pretty sure I won’t be available for the 13th, but might still be able to fit the 15th in. I can commit to the 18th and/or 20th though.

      An Australian/Russian friendly time is certainly a good idea, since GSoC always seems to actually be hugely popular with colleges in India.

    • Ian Dunn 6:13 pm on March 10, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      21:00 UTC on the 18th works for me.

      (The 13th and 20th would also work if necessary, but the 18th would be a little better.)

    • Aaron Jorbin 6:25 pm on March 10, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      13th and 20th work best for me.

      13th – 19:00 UTC till 23:59 UTC work best

      20th – 15:00 UTC til 05:00 the next day UTC works best

      I’m not sure there is a time that is good for Russia, East Coast USA and Australia. 0500 is one idea. It’s only 1am on the US East Coast, while being 4pm in Sydney and 9am in Moscow.

    • George Stephanis 9:17 pm on March 10, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Most anytime — I’ll be around. :)

    • Yoav Farhi 8:08 am on March 11, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      The 18th on 21:00 UTC or earlier.

    • Marko Heijnen 8:45 am on March 13, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      All other dates then today works for me.

    • Eric 4:30 pm on March 14, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      I’m game for Tuesday the 18th, and Thursday the 20th

    • Aaron Douglas 7:37 pm on March 14, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Tuesday the 18th and Thursday the 20th are good for me

  • Jen Mylo 7:00 pm on February 24, 2014 Permalink | Log in to leave a Comment
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    We’ve been accepted as a mentoring organization for GSoC! Now comes the work of interacting with potential students on wp-hackers (let’s try to be responsive, and nice) and in #wordpress-dev and #wordpress-gsoc (I’ll set up a few scheduled chats soon, but idle in the channel if you can to field questions) during the application period. Mentors, I’ll contact you within the next couple of days to set up chat times and discuss the application review process.

    Thanks to everyone who helped get our Ideas page filled!

     
  • Jen Mylo 6:16 pm on February 13, 2014 Permalink | Log in to leave a Comment
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    GSoC 2014 Application Status 

    I’ve submitted our GSoC application. If anyone is interested in seeing the essay/short-answer questions they ask and how I answered them, I posted that part of the application over at http://make.wordpress.org/community/2014/02/13/gsoc-2014-application/

    If you haven’t posted an idea to the codex page http://codex.wordpress.org/GSoC2014 but have time now, go ahead and add it. More ideas = more possible students applying for something that grabs their attention. Also, Google will be reviewing applications Feb 17-21, so adding more ideas (don’t forget to use the template and provide description) between now and the 17th is especially helpful. Not having enough ideas is why we didn’t get accepted in 2012.

    Google will announce participating organizations on February 24.

     
  • Jen Mylo 7:01 pm on February 7, 2014 Permalink | Log in to leave a Comment
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    GSoC: Now’s the Time 

    Hey all. I created our org profile for GSoC and have started filling out the application. Before I submit it, our ideas page needs to be bursting with project ideas and potential mentors. To that end, if you are interested in mentoring (co-mentoring a specific student, or just being a casual helper-outer in our gsoc channel when the time comes), let’s get you listed and get those project ideas posted.

    Go to http://codex.wordpress.org/GSoC2014 and log in to the codex (your wordpress.org u/p). You will see that I’ve made a template for posting project ideas. Just click the Edit link next to Ideas or next to the template labeled “Project Idea (copy this section, paste below…”, and add your idea to the list below the ones that are there. I filled in one for the standard Full-throttle Trac Annihilation idea using the template so there would be at least one example there for the first poster.

    Post as many good ideas for projects as you can think of. Make sure they are substantial enough to constitute a full-time summer job for the student, but not so grand that they won’t be able to finish in 3 months. Note that we always require their working prototype by midterm, so really they should be able to do the primary coding in 6 weeks, with the 2nd 6 weeks for revision, documentation, testing, merging, etc.

    Mentors who volunteered on the last thread have been posted in the Mentors section, but you should go in and edit your description to give some info about you, your areas of interest, etc. All mentor names should link to their wordpress.org profiles, as you see with the ones I’ve already posted. If you’d like to link to your own personal site for more info, please do so in the description rather than linking your name there.

    It says please don’t edit the mentors section without talking to me first. If you have been a previous mentor for GSoC (or have been listed as mentor before but didn’t wind up with a mentee), consider yourself as having talked to me and go ahead and add yourself to the list/edit your description. If you have never gone through the GSoC process before, please ping me in irc so I can review stuff with you (expectations, etc) before officially putting you on the list.

    If folks could start adding to this page now and continue over the weekend, then by Monday we can do a review to see if there are big gaps where I need to go mentor-hunting before submitting the application.

    Thanks!

     
  • Jen Mylo 6:20 pm on January 29, 2014 Permalink | Log in to leave a Comment
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    GSoC 2014 

    It’s that time of year again, when all good* core developers start thinking about whether or not they’re up for mentoring a GSoC student this year. Many in this group know the drill, but there quite a few involved core contribs active this cycle who haven’t been involved with GSoC before, so here’s the deal:

    • Google pays for a program that gives college students summer jobs creating open source code under the mentorship of an organization (like WordPress).
    • We apply to be a mentoring organization and put up a list with a bunch of potential summer project ideas and identify who the mentors might be.
    • If we’re chosen to participate, we get a certain number of slots to fill, and students submit applications to work with us.
    • All the potential mentors rate/rank the proposals, and decide if there’s someone they’d like to mentor.
    • In game of chance-meets-requests dizzy enough to rival medical school matches, we put together our wish list for mentor-student matchups. 2 mentors per student, to provide coverage and make things more collaborative.
    • We hope that none of our top picks also applied to other orgs who accepted them, and wind up with our student roster.
    • We provide volunteer mentors to work one-on-one with the kids on projects that they applied to do over a 3-month period.
    • Open source code is released into the wild.

    I’ll be putting together our application to be a mentoring organization this week, so it’s time to start thinking of project ideas we could suggest on the Ideas page that we need for the application (the more ideas the better) and who wants to be a mentor. The application deadline is February 14, so I’d like to get the Ideas list in solid shape (along with mentor bios) by Feb 10 (a week from Monday).

    If you have an idea or are interested in being a mentor, please leave a comment on this post. At the end of the dev chat after 3.9 business is out of the way, we can discuss some of the ideas and I can answer any questions people have about mentoring.

    Related: I’m also going to be posting soon about starting up a regular mentorship program, as outlined here. But that can wait for another day.

    *Where good means both skilled and kind and generous with their time.

     
    • Jen Mylo 6:22 pm on January 29, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Also, will need a few people to identify tickets that no one’s working on that would be good ones to use for the “submit a patch” requirement of the application.

    • Ian Dunn 6:59 pm on January 29, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Is it only open for Core, or can Meta, Mobile, etc also propose projects?

      • Andrew Nacin 7:10 pm on January 29, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        Any.

        • Ian Dunn 7:54 pm on January 29, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          Awesome. @jenmylo, I’d be happy to mentor someone if you have any Community projects you think would be a good fit for GSoC.

          • Jen Mylo 8:41 pm on January 29, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

            @iandunn: Definitely, just need to make sure that it’s something releasable, like a plugin vs building onto one of the sites. Maybe forms, finally?

            • Ian Dunn 9:04 pm on January 29, 2014 Permalink

              That could work. The idea of having the pre-defined forms for speakers/sessions/etc is specific to WordCamp.org, but we could easily put the general architecture for a pre-defined form into the plugin itself, and then define WordCamp.org’s specific forms via a filter in a custom plugin.

              The result from that approach would be the same as if the our forms were built into the plugin itself, but it would keep the core plugin independent so it could be released in the WordPress.org repo and used by anyone.

              We don’t necessarily have to release it in the wporg repo in order to open-source it, though. Most of WordCamp.org’s custom stuff is already open-sourced in the Meta repo. Not sure if the GSoC guidelines just want it open-source, or if the spirit of it is to make it easily available/useable for others.

    • Wojtek Szkutnik 7:48 pm on January 29, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Always happy to help with mentoring if needed :)

    • Marko Heijnen 8:48 pm on January 29, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      I would love to mentor. Hopefully this time I’m more lucky then last year. I can help with core, mobile or GlotPress.

      • Jen Mylo 9:20 pm on January 29, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        If you can write up some specific project ideas that you would like to mentor, that will help with the luck. Someone who applies for your idea would likely be given to the person who proposed it, vs running into a situation like last year where a handful of people all requested the same student.

    • Justin Shreve 9:28 pm on January 29, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      I’m interested in mentoring this year (did you even have to ask? :))

      Some things I would be interested in (based on some previous ideas):

      • New User Walkthrough. Specifically meter based “you are 10% setup, etc”. Think LinkedIn style.
      • A visual way to surface visual embeds / oEmebeds etc. Instead of needing to magically know that a Spotify or Twitter URL needs to go on its line, support some kind of UI (maybe in the media explorer) that allows you to insert content
      • Anything External API Related. No specific project here. It depends on what is in core at the time (if it’s XML-RPC still or if REST is available yet)
      • General Mentoring
    • Eric 9:35 pm on January 29, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      I’m game to mentor a mobile project this year. I’ll post some project ideas after I’ve had some time to brainstorm a bit.

    • Aaron Jorbin 5:04 pm on January 31, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      I would love to mentor once again. Some ideas that I have:

      • Make the PHPUnit tests run faster
      • Increase the number of JavaScript Unit Tests
      • CSS/JS Optimization
      • Automated performance testing
      • Anything dev tools related.
      • Bryan Petty 5:31 pm on February 4, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        I think the biggest improvement we could make to the unit tests in regards to speed is to find a way to merge multisite tests into the base tests, and only run tests that are actually affected by single/multisite environment changes.

        Right now, we run every single unit test a second time during the multisite run, but in reality, probably less than 25% of them are even affected by multisite. For example, we don’t need to re-run sanitize/escape tests a second time.

        There’s certainly probably lots of places we could avoid @runTestsInSeparateProcesses, especially if we were to deprecate/remove constants.

        Another option might be to find a way to cleanly reset the DB without calling wp_install() again (do one install, dump, and reload from dump directly on the next test with @runTestsInSeparateProcesses).

        Other than that, then you just have optimizations on individual tests, which just becomes a mundane task that no-one wants to do, especially if patches are just ignored because they are so minor and not important.

        • Andrew Nacin 7:43 pm on February 4, 2014 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          Re-running the entire suite under multisite has flagged a lot of issues over the years. I think we’re along way from that point. Multisite just has too many odd side effects on core.

  • Jen Mylo 3:16 pm on January 19, 2014 Permalink | Log in to leave a Comment
    Tags: , oscon, outreach   

    OSCON 2014 

    There are a few days left to submit proposals to OSCON. It would be great to see the sessions there that are about WordPress actually being presented by people involved in the project, so I’d like to encourage/beg/urge some of you to submit a proposal based on your involvement in the core project and/or the cool stuff that’s come out in the past year. The submission deadline is January 30, and the event itself is in Portland, OR July 20-24, 2014. To apply to speak at OSCON, go to http://www.oscon.com/oscon2014/public/cfp/308

     
  • Jen Mylo 5:26 pm on September 5, 2013 Permalink
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    Team Rep 

    Hi core team! Checking in on the team rep situation — just waiting on core team to pick one for the next three months before getting all the other teams going with theirs (their new ones, I mean; everyone else already chose). It’s been a couple weeks, so would like to get this wrapped up today if possible. I asked Jaquith in -dev just now about the result of the meeting yesterday, and he said: “I believe we were going to let people volunteer themselves or others.nominate, decide, soon.”

    If that’s already underway, great, and please let me know later today who you all decided on.

    If it’s not really a priority bc core development is taking up all the prioritized brain activity, may I suggest @dh-shredder? When Scribu bowed out last time, we all agreed for Shredder to replace him, but though I talked to him about it at WC San Diego and then posted his name on the team reps page on the make/updates blog, I apparently forgot to post a formal announcement. So if no one is feeling an urgent desire to step up and write weekly updates and relay news back and forth, maybe Shredder would be willing to take the 3-month term, formally this time?

    Anyone you guys decide is fine, but please do decide today.
    Thanks!

     
    • Jen Mylo 6:52 pm on September 5, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Nacin let me know he’s putting together a poll based on yesterday’s dev chat. Sorry for any confusion… when I asked this morning it sounded like it hadn’t gotten that far and I was hoping to speed things up. I’ll follow up with nacin tomorrow for poll results. Thanks!

  • Jen Mylo 6:53 pm on May 2, 2013 Permalink
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    GSoC Chat 

    Mentors: GSoC chat in #wordpress-gsoc in about an hour if you’re available.

     
  • Jen Mylo 1:53 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink
    Tags: , deadlines   

    Post Formats, Schedules, and Philosophy 

    Post Formats UI is looking like this right now:
    Screen shot 2013-04-23 at 9.05.04 AM

    This seems confusing, because it looks like they are icons to insert something (Image, Gallery, Link, Video, etc), but instead of launching a popup to insert a link or an image, the screen changes and the navigation that was just used to choose disappears completely. (Note: If Standard had some indication of being the default/current selection it wouldn’t be as confusing)

    Clicking on one — say Link — makes the UI change, the big icon row go away, and a format switcher link drops below the title rather than keeping its visual hierarchy above the post stuff, and it’s generally disorienting.

    Screen shot 2013-04-23 at 9.09.35 AM

    If the user thinks, “Whoa, what happened, I better change format again,” and they click on the “Change format’ link under the title field and next to the “Enter URL” instruction, the screens morphs again to this:

    Screen shot 2013-04-23 at 9.12.41 AM

    Where the icon strip is back, but the link field has disappeared and the icon next to Add New Post is still a link. This is super confusing. Does it still think it is a link bc they didn’t actively choose to return to standard, they just chose to see the options? If that’s so, why did the url field disappear?

    Looking at the release schedule:
    Screen shot 2013-04-23 at 9.40.18 AM
    We launched Beta 1 on April 4, and it’s been almost 3 weeks without a follow-up beta 2.
    …I am wondering if the post formats ui is really prime time ready, or if it should be one of the very first thing sto land in a 3.7 branch so we can get the things that are completely ready into the hands of users sooner rather than later?

    Since I’m outside the core dev group now, I’ve been on both sides of the deadline delay dance. I know how hard it is to let go of something that feels like it is thisclose to done. And I know that just about everyone on the core team will be thinking right about now that I should shut up (and I’m okay with that, because it used to be my first response to deadline questions to core, too). But we have this philosophy posted on wordpress.org:

    Deadlines Are Not Arbitrary

    Deadlines are not arbitrary, they’re a promise we make to ourselves and our users that helps us rein in the endless possibilities of things that could be a part of every release. We aspire to release three major versions a year because through trial and error we’ve found that to be a good balance between getting cool stuff in each release and not so much that we end up breaking more than we add.

    Good deadlines almost always make you trim something from a release. This is not a bad thing, it’s what they’re supposed to do.

    The route of delaying a release for that one-more-feature is, literally, a rabbit hole. We did that for over a year once, and it wasn’t pleasant for anybody.

    The more frequent and regular releases are, the less important it is for any particular feature to be in this release. If it doesn’t make it for this one, it’ll just be a few months before the next one. When releases become unpredictable or few and far between, there’s more pressure to try and squeeze in that one more thing because it’s going to be so long before the next one. Delay begets delay.

    I’m not trying to be a troublemaker or imply that anyone isn’t doing everything they can — I know for a fact that people are working themselves into the ground on this release. Nor am looking to incite a debate about deadlines or all the explanations of how we fell behind this time (I’ve been following along, everything is really pretty normal). But would it be better to not try to squeeze it all in, get out what we can ship now (including the awesome 2013 theme that regular people still don’t have access to), and take a quick breath to relax before diving back in on a new cycle? Shipping is a feature, too. ;)

     
    • mordauk 2:01 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      I love where the new post formats UI is going, but I have to agree with Jen about the confusion a lot of users are going to see. When playing with them last week, I caught myself asking some of the exact same questions Jen mentioned above, and I’m a “power” user.

      If it is one or the other, I’d prefer to see 3.6 pushed back a bit so that it can still include the new post formats.

      • Jon Brown 5:47 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        Ditto. Current UI is confusing for all the reasons Jen documented. I was actually starting to like the UI just before beta,, but beta 1′s change post format link is awful. Fix or punt, but don’t release it like this. Do keep API’s either way, I’d assume changing those might cascade into post revision changes?

        • lisafirke 10:38 pm on April 24, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          On the UI, yes, it’s confusing, even to an experienced user. The fix doesn’t seem that tough, though. Keep in mind that icons don’t have to carry all the weight. Words are useful, too! What would be wrong with adding a simple: “Choose a post format:” label?

          Also, standard icon shouldn’t be a pin. That to me signifies a *sticky* post.

      • Harish Chouhan 11:42 am on April 25, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        Yup pushing back 3.6 seems better path. So much work has been put into this already. The Tabs that were there very early in the development of 3.6 were annoying but more usable. Hiding and displaying the Post Format icons, involves extra click and confusion.

    • Caspar 2:05 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      tbh, I have no idea why post formats made it into core. They have, so it’s useless to complain. But if Links got removed from core into a plugin, so should post formats.

      The UI itself looks very nice, though, if one likes the feature. Yet I think Jen is right: give it the time it deserves. I don’t think a majority of users would miss it if it had to wait until 3.7.

      • George Stephanis 2:06 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        Post formats have been in core for some time now. It’s just the UI implementation that’s new, to make it easier for people to use, as well as implementing the custom fields for each.

        • Jen Mylo 2:17 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          UI enhancements are, well, enhancements. This is what the schedule says about Beta 1:

          From this point on, no more commits for any new enhancements or feature requests in this release cycle, only bug fixes. Any enhancements/feature requests not completed and committed by this point will be punted to future. Please don’t get angry and complain when this happens; it’s necessary to get us to an on-time release. You can keep working on your pet ticket and have it ready for early 3.7.

          Saying that the UI was an overall bug is enough stretch to snap a tendon. :)

          • Aaron D. Campbell 2:20 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

            The new UI was in before beta but the tests revealed bugs. I think that saying we’re trying to stretch the definition of bug to include the original UI enhancement is an equally tendon-snapping stretch.

            • Jen Mylo 2:35 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink

              Poor usability isn’t really a bug, it’s unfinished design.

      • Mike Schinkel 8:52 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        I have no idea why post formats made it into core. They have, so it’s useless to complain. But if Links got removed from core into a plugin, so should post formats.

        In hindsight, compared to my opinion when they were first announced, I definitely have to agree. With everything you just said, except the first part; I do have an idea of why.

    • John Blackbourn (johnbillion) 2:07 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      +1 on punting the post formats UI to 3.7, and releasing 3.6 with the other great features we have, including Twenty Thirteen. I think to bring this UI up to scratch we need to re-address it without the impending delay of 3.6 looming over our heads.

    • Aaron D. Campbell 2:09 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Where the icon strip is back, but the link field has disappeared and the icon next to Add New Post is still a link. This is super confusing.

      I agree that the icon should change back to standard. That’s a bug.

    • Chip Bennett 2:10 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      +1 to releasing the Post Formats UI updates when they’re ready: either by delaying 3.6, or punting the implementation to 3.7.

      Can we keep the underlying functions, though? Standardizing on post-format related post custom meta data, and standard data fields for each post format type, is equally (if not more) important than the UI improvements.

      • Jen Mylo 2:13 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        I would agree.

      • George Stephanis 2:30 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        +1

      • Beau Lebens 2:50 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        Can we keep the underlying functions, though? Standardizing on post-format related post custom meta data, and standard data fields for each post format type, is equally (if not more) important than the UI improvements.

        Definitely agree on this bit.

      • Konstantin Kovshenin 2:57 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        What exactly is the benefit of keeping the APIs to access meta data, without keeping the UIs exposing that data?

        • Chip Bennett 3:20 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          Because the back end isn’t the only place that those meta-data are exposed? Theme-rendering of the meta data is completely unaffected by back-end UI.

        • Drew Jaynes (DrewAPicture) 3:55 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          I can see some benefit in keeping the APIs to access the metadata, which is to make it available and allow the wider WordPress community to innovate and iterate on that information. Of course, it doesn’t really solve the issue of Twenty Thirteen relying on that metadata and having no UI to handle it.

          • Chip Bennett 4:50 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

            The API handles migration of appropriate data to post meta data. Could that be confusing? (Where did my video go?) Sure. That can be addressed, though, with simple metaboxes for relevant data, even without the contextually changing icons/UI. And post format selection is already available via meta box.

        • Drew Jaynes (DrewAPicture) 4:05 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          I’m with @chipbennett that we should either extend the release or punt the UI to 3.7 while at the same time keeping and exposing the underlying functionality.

          As I said in response to @koveshenin, I can see one major benefit of exposing the meta data APIs as allowing for community innovation and iteration. I’d like to see us expose the APIs and maybe package core’s version of the UI into a plugin. The ability is there, the implementation is not and I’d like to see us give it a better measure of caution before we roll it as a core UI.

        • krogsgard 4:10 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          I already do custom UI interfaces for clients w/ post formats, and the new functions and standard meta data conventions are enormously helpful for future proofing a custom UI. If the UI gets bumped, keeping the new functions will still be a big win for theme developers.

      • Marcus 6:38 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        +1

        the ui is too important to rush, since it’s used by everyone

    • Hassan 2:18 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      I don’t really think that Post Formats UI are that important of an addition to make the release date pushed back again and again. I know some people might want it, but for me I’ll probably won’t use it all. Btw, if my theme doesn’t support it, I won’t see it, right?

      So, yeah… I don’t mind pushing it to v3.7 instead. I’d rather ship something fully tried, tested, and trued than half-bake it and rush the release.

    • mindctrl 2:24 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      I’d like to see this come in 3.6, even if that means pushing back the date. If this version is all about “content”, and Twenty Thirteen is all about blogging, it makes sense that this UI makes it in and launches with 3.6 and the theme.

      I don’t think there are millions of people sitting around tapping their feet saying WordPress 3.6 better come on 4/29, or even know that’s the date. The devs and core team, sure. Users, not so much. It is about the users, right?

      The rabbit hole thing kinda doesn’t apply in my mind. It’s not adding one more feature here or there. It’s getting one of the centerpiece features of this release finished and included.

      If everyone agrees to push back the release date and that no work gets done in 3.6 that’s unrelated to Post Formats UI, there is no rabbit hole.

      • Daniel Dvorkin (MZAWeb) 2:31 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        Personally, I don’t really like the new Post Formats because I don’t find it very useful for my use cases. Having said that, I must say this argument makes a whole lot of sense.

        • Nashwan Doaqan 4:15 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          I agree with you, The post formats is not very useful to me, but maybe for others it may be very important … anyway after all work on The New Post Formats UI it will be hard thing to move it to 3.7 :(

        • nofearinc 9:31 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          I do agree with you; don’t get their concept, not sure if I will. I’ve seen other systems using this approach though and it would be interesting to see what users would judge here if they get an access to the post format switcher. It’s still a common blogging platform even if we build CMS-based stuff out of it.

          Problem is we can’t easily deprecate anything that’s open to the public and it might be the new ‘Links’ thingy that lives and dies notoriously.

        • mattyrob 10:47 am on April 24, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          I can’t see a use for this section either so I’ve hidden it on my testing sites.

          That said, if this is supposed to be a new core feature of 3.6 then releasing a new version without it and bumping to 3.7 seems ill advised.

          I’d say get it fixed, delay the release to all this to happen (and if possible while fixing it, allow it to be hidden from the Screen Options).

      • kevinjohngallagher 11:02 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        I don’t think there are millions of people sitting around tapping their feet saying WordPress 3.6 better come on 4/29, or even know that’s the date. The devs and core team, sure. Users, not so much. It is about the users, right?

        I disagree.

        It’s not about “millions” of people, it’s about the businesses and organisations that based themselves on top of WordPress. As we move out of the small shops, and small website builds into larger engagements (Government, Enterprise, Education, and Charity sectors) we start to hit more and more procedural issues and legislation.

        There is a huge challenge for many of us of balancing Open Source agility against Service Level Agreements. We’re navigating digital security engagements, code freezes and legal red tape (hello disability discrimination act versus our love of mouse-only hover menus and slight shading that colour blind people cant see) – and these things are planned well in advance.

        For example, the Release Date for WP3.6 is the same week as the big bank holiday weekend in the UK (most don’t happen in both Scotland and England), so we’ve had to make plans around it in February. We are so focussed on blogging end users that we forget about the business ecosystem thats built around WP beyond that of 5 or less people organisations.

        if we want WordPress to scale, in a non-technical sense, then we need to address some of the fundamentals of our product management.

        • mindctrl 12:49 pm on April 24, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          Major WP versions are mostly about features, and if your SLAs for large organizations require you to be on the cutting edge of Feature 1.0 at release time, you just might be insane. :)

    • Ryan Boren 2:35 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      The four month deadline is so fanciful as to be arbitrary. It always has been. Historically, we just can’t do a major release with a marquee UI feature in that time, certainly not without heroic efforts of the 3.5 sort. So we end up facing decisions like this. Every single release we wonder if we have to punt the marquee feature. Punting often requires major surgery that can be as much work as finishing the feature. Punting is demoralizing. Four month releases are empty promises that bring us here.

      • Jen Mylo 3:09 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        I used to argue that a 6-month schedule was more realistic with the kinds of features we choose, so I don’t disagree with you, but the people who made the 3.6 schedule and chose the scope for it are the core leads, no?

        At least change the schedule page if a decision was made to push back release by a month or whatever.

      • kevinjohngallagher 10:43 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        I can’t disagree with you Ryan, but in an agile methodology – and again thats what the core team has embraced – it’s a completely moot point.

        Every completed work that is signed off in each sprint that matches “definition of done” makes it into a releasable candidate. Work that is not integrated into the “master branch” isn’t released.

        The issue is not a 4 month, or a 6 months or a 4 week or a 12 month release cycle, it’s the management of scope of what can be done in that time period. Can we release a new WordPress version every 4 months? yes. Can we release a new WordPress version every 4 weeks? yes. Can we do that regardless of the amount of scope we presume we can deliver? heck no!

        The developers that work on care are amazing. As a failed developer myself I’m always in awe of what gets done. But there are 4 factors in the engineering pyramid: Scope, Time, Quality and Resource.

        > When Scope is more than should fit into time, and resource stays the same, the only variable that moves is quality.

        In WP’s history, thats usually to the detriment of edge cases. Especially when we’re talking about UI changes.

        Historically, we just can’t do a major release with a marquee UI feature in that time

        That to me suggests that Marquee UI features should be done over 2 (or more) releases. We should release features when they are ready in accordance with our definition of done. Releasing a feature that isn’t up to our MVP isn’t going to do any good, and neither is changing our release date. We shouldn’t try to change our release date to fit in with our feature set, nor vice versa.

        I suggest the Project Manager reads: http://ma.tt/2010/11/one-point-oh/

        Punting often requires major surgery that can be as much work as finishing the feature

        Thats a very different issue. We should be managing integration in the most decoupled way possible. Tight coupling of features into the core so that they *have* to ship is a scary scary path that leads through “bloatville” to “dependancy-city”. If something can’t be built as a plug-in, then thats the issue that should be solved first.

    • Scott Taylor 2:36 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      I would argue that the deadline is entirely arbitrary, and it was never realistically altered based on shifting resources. That being said, we had a previous UI iteration we were all proud of, and then user testing said otherwise. The new UI tested about 3 million times better (I’m a data scientist by trade). Since we are in beta (shipping late for sure), now is the perfect time for more testing and tweaks, not less.

      In the past few weeks, we have landed some huge and wildly complex commits, but there are not a litany (or really any) of those left. There are things here or there, but none (?) are blockers.

      I agree it’s crunch time, but I would rather we all pull together and use our noggins rather than criticize and shelf it. What’s *really* missing? *How much* needs to change? @lessbloat and I rejiggered the entire UI in 1-2 days. I doubt that kind of effort is needed again or a that complete reboot is necessary

    • Tom J Nowell 2:36 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      I’d suggest:

      • The post format icons should never go away, they provide a second purpose as an indicator and feedback once clicked, hiding them removes that function and forces the user to either remember what they clicked, or figure out from scratch if they’re looking at an existing post.
      • Icons and labels at the moment look arbitrary as if they’re just floating in the middle
      • When opening a new page, how do you know that it’s a standard post, it’s not highlighted in any way or shown to be active. It’s not obvious that the icons are a toggle/selection
      • The icons look more like buttons, actions, that they do something rather than set a status/toggle/selection

      So I’d say that they would be better as tabs, always visible, or at least with a separating line so it’s clear that they are separate from the controls underneath and have a high level purpose, associating them with the Add New Post rather than the content box.

      • Jen Mylo 3:11 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        I would agree that keeping the icons present would be less disorienting.

      • Andrew Ozz 8:46 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        A post format is something that should be chosen once at starting a new post. It could be changed later but that would mean loosing/removing some of the data that the user has entered (well, we don’t “loose” the data but it becomes unreachable/useless).

        In that terms hiding the icons after a post format has been set makes sense. Perhaps the link can be more prominent and be above the title field (or whatever field is at the top for the current format).

        Keeping all post format icons visible at all times is not good imho. We still need to educate many users what post formats are and how they can be used. Part of this is that changing a post format comes at a cost.

      • Erlend Sogge Heggen 10:46 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        +1 for icons never going away. If that was the case however, I think it should be possible to turn off post formats altogether. If you’re using a format-supporting theme but your client is only interested in making ordinary posts, you’d want those tabs out of there.
        +1 for making them look more like tabs.

    • Tom J Nowell 2:46 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Here’s a UI that fixes the issues, doesn’t have the pretty images, but that can be fixed ( look at your browser tabs for an example )

      http://alexking.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/format-standard-510×244.png

    • Justin Sainton 2:49 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      I’d agree with Pippin, Scott and Ryan. Do what’s necessary (which most agree, is not much) to ship with this in 3.6. We’ve already lost one original content feature (to @danielbachhuber and @kovshenin‘s great malaise), I don’t see the benefit in shipping without a Post Format UI.

      It also seems that the general opposition to the new UI is “It’s awkward…people won’t know what to do…it’s jarring” – all of that is also true of the Post Format concept in general, we heard the same arguments when the initial API was introduced. Give people time and give them credit to work it out.

      • Jen Mylo 3:01 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        Millions of people have no trouble understanding the concept with Tumblr. Regular users don’t even think about “post formats,” they think about “posting a video” or whatever the format is.

        • kevinjohngallagher 9:57 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          The difference with Tumblr is that it is not a post format change, it’s a post type.
          We have post types (with custom UIs to look like post formats), and post formats that have the same functionality as post types.

          Post formats are essentially standardised custom post types with a unified UI – but only accessible from a totally different place in the admin section.
          ( CPT called “quotes” is a main navigation link, while post formats is inside post, and then choose quote)

          Post Formats are a great idea, but in a rush to get them out the door in 3.1 we took a tactical decision rather than a strategic decision which has led us to where we are now.

    • nphaskins 3:02 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      I think it’s right on the money how it’s currently sitting. I wasn’t too keen on how it sat previously (small icons and boxes) so to the guys who re-jigged it, I think you did a stellar job. I’ve been using this (the new UI and functions) extensively over the past week or so as I’ve been rebuilding a few products against the current beta and the current UI. I find it quite nice and don’t consider it confusing at all. I asked my wife to look, and she knows nothing about web shit, and even she could figure it out.

      I’m typically a “hard to please” kind of person and I really do think that this is damn close to being kosher.

    • Nashwan Doaqan 3:03 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      The new post format UI is a main feature in 3.6, I can’t imagine the 3.6 version without it… but if you think it is not ready yet you can move it to 3.7 and focus on other bugs tickets…

      My opinion is to do one idea perfectly is better than doing a lot :)

    • BobDunn-Trainer 3:10 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Yes, I do believe if it is released, we will all adapt, even though it is confusing for the average user. The big question is will they even attempt to use these, or totally ignore them. Putting them up front and center will force them to at least try to understand.

      At our last WordPress meetup we did an overview of 3.6. I asked all the casual users to raiser their hands. Then I asked them to keep their hand up if they had ever used post formats or even understood them. All hands when down.

      From the perspective of the people I work with, casual users, I am good either way ;)

    • Stuntbox 3:20 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      I’m just one person, but I’d vote for keeping Post Formats in 3.6. Until now, the lack of any kind of admin UI has made Post Formats an incomplete feature. Most casual users aren’t using or discovering them because it’s completely invisible to them without a UI.

      Tweaking and refining the existing UI design seems like it would benefit from this shipping. While there’s been user testing on the Post Formats UI, it’s limited in scope compared to the total number of users who will be exposed to it and provide useful feedback once it goes live.

      It also seems like there are small tweaks that can be made to improve the current UI without punting on it altogether or causing huge delays. Things like simply updating the main heading in the admin UI as the user makes a selection. It won’t cure everything, but it would be a subtle reinforcement if it changed from “Add New Post” to “Add New Image Post”, etc, as a user made selections. (I know I’m getting off topic here, but you get the idea.)

    • Robert Dall 3:27 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      On Schedules:

      To use an analogy… If the ferry is always late… I don’t say the ferry is broken… I say change the scheduled…

    • Grant Palin 4:46 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      The post formats basic functionality has been in place for some time already. I’m surprised there hasn’t been an official UI for it sooner. It’s something I think is core to blogging, and could be worth pushing on it a little bit more to get it done now. And ship it when it is ready, rather than committing to a deadline. I thought the 3.6 cycle was surprisingly short anyway, so there’s room to extend it a bit.

    • Knut Sparhell 5:02 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      My first impression after seeing this new post format UI was: How elegant! Sometimes something will feel confusing to someone. When introducing new features the questions should be if the UI at least is educating and guiding the road to understand the purpose.

      These post formats are a major leap forward. Removing (punting) this would reduce 3.6 to a release that just fixes some old bugs. Push the scheduled dates a few weeks more and get it released.

      Lesson to learn is to start working on major new features in the cycle preceding the cycle it’s going to be released. Use a plugin to iterate, like with the MP6 project.

      • Jen Mylo 5:29 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        I do think the icons look elegant. Remember that in 3.7 that icon style will be replaced by the icon style in MP6, so it will likely have a pretty different feel.

        • kevinjohngallagher 10:01 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          I think thats an issue right there.

          We’re considering releasing something that we KNOW we’re not happy with, and that is changing next release anyway.

          Why are we forcing multiple UI changes on our users?

          I personally like the UI, though the UX is lacking, but if we’re changing it anyway – what are the advantages of releasing it?

    • Arnan de Gans 6:05 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Sure let’s turn WP into the next Facebook :(
      Can these buttons be hidden in a jquery slide in/out kinda thing?

      Think of the 2nd screenshot, where you click the “change” format and a section slides out pushing all elements on the page down. You click the post format you want. It slides back up and the below form changes accordingly.

      That’s unobtrusive, non-confusing and is “trusted” since some other sites use a similar approach for posting items or hiding options.

    • Scott Taylor 6:51 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      I have yet to hear specifics from anyone about what they want to change and how. No patches, no mockups, no explanation of what actually sucks and a plan to start attacking it. So, sounds like we’re still in beta and could use some Trac activity from those with an opinion.

      I’ve been actively working on this stuff for the past 3 months and most of the people on this thread have had light involvement, if any at all. I am trying to figure out what is constructive about pointing fingers right now.

      • Jen Mylo 7:01 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        I’m not trying to point fingers, as I said. I’m trying to get us to take a look at what is ready to go and what still needs more work, and re-assess the scope/schedule as needed. I also didn’t say it sucked, I said it was confusing, and I posted a step by step outline of why along with screenshots. I have been on the receiving end of the “should it be cut so we can ship” with a WordPress release many times, so I get it that defensiveness is the first reaction. Everything you just said, I’ve said before.

        If the decision is to extend the cycle and try to deliver in May instead, that’s a valid outcome too, but it’s not reflected anywhere on the schedule, which still says there’ll be a beta every week. Being late isn’t the end of the world, but going 3 weeks without another beta makes it seem that there are bigger problems than just fixing bugs, and if the schedule needs to be adjusted/updated to allow for more design/dev time then it should be.

        *I’ve *also* been the pm in the past who extended the dev cycle without updating the schedule page, and got comments asking about it on this blog, so I understand the natural reaction to that is, “Hey, we’re spending all our time on the product, don’t hassle us about a blog page.” :)

    • Matt Mullenweg 7:32 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      We shouldn’t take this personally. Features get adding and removed from releases all the time, even ones I’ve advocated for or worked on, and even at the eleventh hour.

      It’s also very normal to get tons of feedback after all the work on a feature has been done, or often after it’s been shipped.

      Even if it was pulled from core entirely, the work could be put into a plugin that we can see how it gets adopted and used in the WP ecosystem.

      • toscho 9:02 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        I think this is a good idea. We could put it into a plugin and ask the users to allow us collecting usage data to see what elements should find a way into 3.7. Empirical data would surely help.

      • nofearinc 9:35 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        Sounds like the best way to test something major and trendy without risking to think about deprecating and cleaning the codebase afterwards. +1

      • kevinjohngallagher 10:07 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        I’m not against this thinking at all.

        My concern from a purely Project / Product management point of view is that the decision was made to tightly couple this specific change with an external dependancy in the 2013 theme.

        I’m a huge believer in MVP, or MMS depending on where you did your Agile training, and that we’ve fallen foul of the desire to push things into a core release when they weren’t ready before.

        I also believe that this is a prime example of the 80/20 rule causing issues with the decision making for core. As we move more towards CMS and away from purely blogging, WP.com is always going to enforce “purely blogging” concerns/issues/features into the 80 camp.

        [One] can’t imagine the fun conversations that we’ve already had with government agencies around the delay in the beta2 of their chosen CMS due to blogging UI concerns…

      • Erlend Sogge Heggen 11:05 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        The plugin route for developing and testing flagship features across several cycles has proven to work very well for MP6. I hope the WP team will adopt this method for more core features in the future.

        In this instance though, I don’t see why it would be necessary. Even with its current quirks (make it always-on and tabbed-styled and it’s perfect imo) the new post format UI is a HUGE step forward for this very little known feature, all because of an incomplete UI.

        No one’s going to be worse off for this update. They’re either gonna continue making standard posts like they used to, or they’re gonna click those buttons and start learning about post formats.

        • Matt Mullenweg 3:00 am on April 24, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          FWIW, being freed from core was the best thing that ever happened to MP6.

          I do think people will be worse off with this update though. It’s really disheartening to see the confusion that people have when they face the dashboard and the post page, and the overwhelming majority of people who start WP give up without ever making a first post. I think for reasons like Jen pointed out and that came up in user testing.

          The downside of not putting it in is there will be 4-5 months until the next release. Since people think it’s worth waiting at least a month for that doesn’t seem that bad. The downside of putting it in would be the millions of new WP users that are exposed to it for the 4-5 months until the next release (assuming we even do another iteration on it immediately post-release, which we’re not historically great at).

      • mor10 1:21 am on April 26, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        Putting Post Formats in a plugin is definitely the right thing to do. The UI and implementation is confusing but more importantly most current themes don’t have much support for the feature and the output in these themes will be unreliable if not bizarre. Additionally Post Formats are only relevant for blogging. For those who primarily use WordPress as a CMS they are a distraction and end up being in the way. The key questions here are: Do new users understand how Post Formats work? And do WordPress users actually want and use Post Formats at all?

        • kbiglione 3:45 pm on April 26, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          This is exactly the problem. New users are baffled by post formats as it is, and the new UI doesn’t do much to solve that problem.

          Honestly, the new UI seems designed to promote a feature that hasn’t been embraced by theme designers. It’s almost as if we’re doubling down on a bad decision (adding Post Formats to core).

    • Mike 8:40 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Very dumb idea to pull it out! It is better – if necessary to delay the release. If the process works and it’s the GUI that is the problem [for some] just add a toggle to disable it in the Writing settings.

      The Post Formats concept – as presented is very clever, even radical. That’s what a WordPress release should be – moving the bar, innovating, taking blogging to where it’s never been before. It is very likely that this attempt – while far superior to the previous version – is not perfect. But an insular GUI testing audience is not the best group to really charter a path through future waters.

      WordPress is too big now to rollout helium releases. Too many people are putting in big efforts. Taking the Post Formats changes out at this point is disrespecting the great work that’s gone into developing it and disappointing large numbers of developers and users looking forward to innovating with yet another groundbreaking WP technology.

    • Chris M. 8:41 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Give it time. Here’s a thought from the UI perspective:

      http://screencast.com/t/7WMDyVgc1

    • Samuel Wood (Otto) 9:36 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      I say delay the schedule, address the minor concerns that remain. and roll out up to a month late if needed.

      This is the big feature for 3.6. It’s the one that has gotten the most work. And at this point, I think the UI concerns remaining seem relatively minor and fixable, with proper suggestions and input. Nothing here looks like it’s drastically broken enough to go to the MAJOR task of ripping it all out of core just in order to do a release and hit the deadline.

      Deadlines Are Not Arbitrary, this is true. But that point is there specifically to address the issues of feature-creep and unmitigated-scope-expansion. This is neither of those things. Taking the time to make some relatively minor adjustments and polish to the UI seems minor by comparison to hitting that deadline at-all-costs.

      • Samuel Wood (Otto) 9:42 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        Specific suggestions to address the UI concerns in the OP:

        • Make the “current” format have a highlight of some type. Slight background shading. Something.
        • Instead of putting the “change format” below the title, have a selection-action cause the bar to scroll upwards, hiding it or reducing its space-on-page. Not completely hiding it, maybe leave the text visible, and still shaded to show the current format.
        • On mouseover or some other form of indication of change, scroll the bar back down again, but without scrolling the whole page down. Make it overlay the existing area, then change the displayed UI when a new format is selected.
      • kevinjohngallagher 10:21 pm on April 23, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        Brother,

        I agree with your premise in an abstract sense, but not in the specific one.

        We should not stick to a release schedule (really a guideline) just because we posted it, but we should also be aware that companies and organisations do plan against the schedule as posted.

        Given that agile, and we’re using the modified Scrum methodology, states that every sprint has a releasable product as per our “definition of done”, one has to wonder how we’re so off track. I can’t be alone in having a meeting with a client tomorrow morning who will ask why there is no Beta2 at the date when RC2 was meant to be released.

        If we’ve bitten off more than we can chew, then we need to change something:

        • ship with what works (and meets our definition of done) and push the rest to the next release as per the management methodology that we prescribed to

        OR

        • delay the launch to squeeze in as much as possible, and accept that the amount of UAT testing is going to diminish.

        My concern is that every time we’ve made a UI change where we’ve shipped it ASAP, we’ve caused issues. I’m all for release early, release often; i’m all for an agile methodology; but that way of thinking requires a lean model where you release the Minimum Viable Product every time possible. This is not the MVP of 3.6.

        We need to get out of Developer mode and into release management mode. Thats incredibly hard for amazing developers to do. it’s so hard to say, damn it we’re close but it’s just not ready. But we’ve been here before, lets learn some lessons (Capital P Dangit… Inaccessible menus in 3.3… inability to log out without a mouse in 3.3 and 3.4 etc etc).

        • Samuel Wood (Otto) 9:43 pm on April 24, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          Sorry, you lost me when you started talking “agile” and “scrum” and all that other nonsensical project management stuff that I kinda don’t care anything about.

          I’m talking about this specific case. Not a methodology. Not some buzzword-heavy stuff that is, IMO, completely meaningless to real-world software development. I don’t subscribe to any of that jazz, and am totally uninterested in arguments based on it.

          For this specific case, at this specific time, the UI seems quite good and only needs some minor improvements to be polished enough to be usable. That’s what I’m saying. Is it worth delaying a bit to finish it? I say “yes, it is”.

          If you have arguments relating to that particular, I’d be happy to listen to them. I’m a coder, I speak as a coder. I don’t do project management, nor have any opinions based on it.

          • Konstantin Kovshenin 9:15 am on April 25, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

            +1 billion.

          • kevinjohngallagher 6:59 pm on April 27, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

            I’m a coder, I speak as a coder. I don’t do project management, nor have any opinions based on it.

            Totally here you. So can I ask then, WHO IS THE PROJECT MANAGER?

            Is it worth delaying a bit to finish it? I say “yes, it is”.

            Cool. When you say “delaying a bit”, how much is “a bit” ?
            10 minutes? 1 day? 1 year? 1 month? 1 week?

      • Mel Choyce 2:11 am on April 24, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        +1. We’ve already made good strides improving the usability of the post formats UI, and I think with some further tweaking and testing we can get it done for 3.6.

    • nathanrice 2:24 am on April 24, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Not that anyone is taking a vote, but as was mentioned earlier, I really don’t see why Links was removed, but post formats needs to be a core feature.

      Or if it MUST be core feature, why the UI needs to be exposed to users with themes that don’t DO ANYTHING in particular with the data, or to users who don’t need, or don’t want, post formats or the associated UI to be part of their publishing experience.

      Or if it MUST be forced on users regardless of whether their theme supports it or they want it (ugh), then why does it HAVE to be part of 3.6? I’m not even sure it’s conceptually sound, much less functionally sound.

      So I’m with Matt, there’s good reason to make this into a plugin, test and iterate, get feedback, and maybe one day it makes it into core.

    • Mark Jaquith 7:16 am on April 24, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      The concerns here seem relatively minor, and can be addressed with a few small tweaks. The treatment we have now tested very well (whereas the one in beta 1 did not).

      I was going to make this point, but I’ll just quote Ryan:

      Punting often requires major surgery that can be as much work as finishing the feature.

      This is absolutely the case here. It it were a matter of removing a file and shipping an RC, that might be a different conversation. If people are willing to help out, we can get these tweaks done tomorrow and ship another beta.

      • Knut Sparhell 8:57 am on April 24, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        How much work is it to remove the new post formats UI from trunk? This has to be compared with the work that remains to make the feature and the UI great.

        Do another iteration on the UI presented here, before making a decision. You guys in the post formats team have done so much great work. It’s already 90% perfect.

    • bobbingwide 1:12 pm on April 24, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Simple question. Is there an approved design for the post formats UI? Failing that, documentation on what each post format is supposed to do and how it does it.

    • Tom Auger 4:02 pm on April 24, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Hi Jen, thanks for this post. I also agree the the current UI is confusing, but I also really like it, AND I also agree with others who point out that changing a post format once the post has been started can be a Bad Idea. Our UI should allow, but not facilitate any workflow that involves changing the post format after the fact.

      So:
      1. When you create a new Post, the input fields are all greyed out until you select one of the post formats.
      2. Once you have selected a post format, the currently selected post format icon remains lit up, and aligned to the left, just above the title. The remaining post format icons collapse under (and behind) this icon – in other words, they disappear.
      3. Where the strip used to be, we now have the text that says “Change post format”.
      4. Clicking this link invokes some kind of confirmation that essentially says “data could be lost”.
      5. Clicking the confirmation brings back the Post Formats ribbon, while greying out the other input fields again.

      The only thing I don’t like is if you want to just get in and write a Post post, you still have to click on the “Post” format icon before you can get started. One solution would be to enable a third-level flyout on the “New Post” menu item that lists miniature versions of the post format icons, so you can jump right into creating the type of post format you want.

      • Mark Jaquith 7:05 pm on April 24, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        Clicking this link invokes some kind of confirmation that essentially says “data could be lost”.

        It isn’t lost, actually. I don’t know if that changes your thoughts on anything. Whether or not the choosing UI should be always visibile is pretty much the last big decision to be made.

        • mindctrl 9:55 pm on April 24, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          The old UI was always visible. That’s not to say the new one has to follow suit, but the current sliding out of view is awkward. I’d prefer it stay visible, highlight the current selection (color icon for active?), and ditch the “change format” text link (which BTW is disconnected from the previous format choosing location).

          To repeat an earlier statement about image post format, the “Link URL” box is confusing at best. Nothing there that suggests “this is the place your image will link to”. Also, I’d guess that most people will be interacting with the media library “Select/Upload Image” far more than the “Image HTML or URL” box. Something should be changed there. The latter is far too prominent, imo.

          The “Image HTML or URL” box is very large, almost suggesting more than one URL can be pasted. However it doesn’t work if you try it. But more importantly, if you paste a long URL and decide to erase it and replace it with another, the box totally disappears. (I should add this to Trac).

      • Brent Logan 8:29 pm on April 24, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        I disagree that changing post formats is a bad idea. I use post formats and change formats *all the time.* Here are some examples:

        1. An image in the post becomes the point of the post so it changes from standard to image.
        2. An aside becomes a status and maybe back again. (I have changing definitions, for what is what.)
        3. A gallery gets culled to a single image.
        4. A standard becomes a quote.

        It’s really no big deal to change formats. At least, it shouldn’t be. The tabbed interface used by FavePersonal is easy to use, shows the current format, and makes it easy to switch between formats. http://crowdfavorite.com/wordpress/themes/favepersonal/

        Sure, not everyone is going to want or use post formats. Give them an option to hide the UI. But for those of us who are waiting for this, make it easy to switch, please.

    • Franz Josef Kaiser 4:31 pm on April 24, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      After reading that MP6 will be integrated/finalized for WP 3.7, I can’t understand why the post formats UI was ever proposed for 3.6. When we already got a new UI in the line, why not introduce new features right when we got it? Would lower the needed UI work, would integrate better, would be more consistent.

      For now just pulling the UI (or post formats completely) out of core and delivering it as plugin that “does phone home” to provide feedback sounds like the only right decision. +1 for that idea.

    • mor10 6:26 pm on April 26, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      I just demoed the current iteration of the Post Formats UI to someone unfamiliar with WordPress but familiar with online publishing applications in general. This is what he said:

      “Based on the UI, my assumption would be that I could write an article and when I wanted to insert an image, a quote, a gallery, a video, or whatever, I just hit the appropriate button above and the fields that show up allow me to do that. What actually happens is not at all what I anticipated.”

      I think there are several issues with the way Post Formats have been implemented in general and how they are presented here, but the most important thing right now is that there is an assumption new users will automatically know what post formats are. The way they are presented doesn’t give any indication of what they are or how they work, and the interpretation of my friend is far more intuitive than the one being assumed by proponents of the current UI.

      • Matt Mullenweg 12:17 am on April 27, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        I was thinking about this a lot yesterday, and it could actually be an interesting approach to a next-gen editor if you think of a post as a series of blocks some of which are full-width and some of which are pulled to the left or right with the text flowing around them. These blocks could be a quote, image/caption, video, gallery of several images, slideshow… with the first two covering 95% of what frustrates people when trying to “lay out” posts. Imagine it a bit like the Storify creator, or a TGD story, or post on Joen’s blog, though there’s probably a better example of what I’m talking about out there somewhere.

        • Mike 8:26 am on April 27, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          There are quite a few “block” CPT plugins (or one could roll his/her own CPT) and with the Display Posts Shortcode plugin (for example) it is easy to insert these into posts.
          Another option is to go back one step to the Media CPT features and re-design the approach to inserting media elements into posts. This would extend existing core technologies that already offer quite a bit and preserve workflow traditions.
          It comes down to what is desired out of the box. I like Beta 1 with a settings option to disable the new GUI (similar to turning off the Tool Bar).
          While it’s not perfect (what is?) it would be great to take an holistic approach to an overhaul of the edit post page that re-examines what’s there and reconsiders how to approach extensibility going forward.

        • mor10 6:06 am on April 28, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

          I recently worked on a site where we did something very similar: instead of displaying images, video, and audio mixed in with the content, these elements were pulled out and placed in the area usually used for the sidebar. It worked especially well with image galleries because it allowed us to display the images in larger sizes with full captions. There is something there for sure.

    • Matt Mullenweg 9:16 pm on April 26, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      I know it’s not fashionable at the moment, but we should include the Press This posting screen in our support for formats if we’re going to do it right in a core release.

    • KirkM 4:59 pm on April 27, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      As a veteran user of WordPress and chronic (albeit quiet) WordPress beta tester, the only real thing I find confusing about the new post format layout is that there’s nothing there to tell the user what exactly those icons are for. Okay, so it may seem obvious to some but in real use, it ain’t so obvious. But this has already been said.

      From my point of view, some added text, above the post format icons, that simply stated something like “Choose your Post Format” or “Change you Post Format” or simply “Post Formats”. Anything that will tell the user exactly what those buttons are for. You could even add a “Learn More” link after the post format “title” that opens a page in another browser window/tab that briefly explains what each post format does and what it’s used for. But for the now adding description “title” above the post format icons would be enough?

    • paaljoachim 8:40 pm on April 27, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      I just do not get it. Why of why have multiple post types, when all one needs is one post type.
      There is a toolbar above the content area that the group could have spent time on improving. For adding media there is the Add Media button. Everything else there is the existing toolbar and the toolbar needs improving to make creating and adding content easier and better looking.

      I did see the http://wpusertesting.com/videos/DC7-7.mp4 and totally agreed with how she did things. I do believe that most new users will also create posts in a similar way.

      The more options available the more confusion the result can be. One Page type and one Post type seems like a good option to me, and then make the toolbar for adding/editing content amazing easy to use.

    • ezhil 4:00 am on April 29, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      The current post format reminds me of tumblr interface. wordpress is mostly used as cms and for regular websites. This post format would typecast wordpress as a personal blogging s/w. i hope we can add a settings option to enable/disable this so that it would be usefull for people who wants it.

    • Jeff Cohan 2:07 pm on April 29, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      I know I’m late to the party. And all of you probably have more WordPress knowledge in the tips of your pinky fingers than I do in my old brain.

      But here’s my $0.02 on the issue of POST FORMAT CHOOSING/SWITCHING:

      Forget icons. Forget tabs. Put the Post Format options in the “Publish” meta box, after the “Published on” section. Make it work like the “Status” and “Visibility” options: a select menu with an “Ok” submit, which causes the UI to display the pieces appropriate for the selected format. Default (obviously) would be standard.

      For users who don’t know/care about Post Formats (yet), the choosing/switching function would be out of the way. For those who do, they know where to get it.

      There. I said it.

      • eburnett 11:23 pm on May 1, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        I don’t know – I kind of like the whole new post interface direction…makes things simpler for getting familiarized with the backend – one thing I absolutely can’t stand is when someone loads on a base install of WordPress, peeks around a little stops short then says “Oh yeah, I tried WordPress…it doesn’t do anything”

    • eburnett 6:25 pm on April 30, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Great. It looks nice and all but a few caveats. Where’s M4A? Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for open source, open web but I haven’t even taken a look at the video and I’m worried that I’m going to meet similar problems there too…so if I were a content provider, and I wanted to make use of the new supported post types, then turn around and sell, first off – I don’t want to start off with a lossy format – I love open source, but not lossy audio. MP3/OGG is simply not a road everyone is going to turn down, simply because some people don’t like Apple. On the other front, you have the post/memory-limit/file-upload size aperture issue, 2 of which simply can’t be dealt with a plugin after PHP 5.3 (PHP_INI_PERDIR) pertaining to video, this is very promising where some host limits can be as low as 64mb. Prepare the tickets for this “whammy” bar, it looks nice – I wish it could do what it sets out to (it would make things so much simpler for the new comer end user).

      On another note, I was really disappointed with TwentyThirteen, I thought the orange concept was just a pre-fab and not the actual design release (the theme is not what is bothering it’s the tools behind it) I was expecting this theme to show off a lot more in respect to customizer options, advanced theme settings, after seeing the inclusion of audio – not just a player but an actual working playlist worked into the theme much like iTheme’s AudioBlock attempts to do. As the codex expands, I was definitely hoping this theme would showcase and comment a lot of developer notes on what we should be looking for in developments in the codex, new supported post types, advanced settings, jquery updates – instead it kind of feels like there’s more attention being given to underscore…if that be the case then you need to show us how to make full use of theme options and the like. Anyhow, keep up to good work and hopefully you’ll find a graceful medium for us as I for one, would like to be able to make use of 3.6, once it is truly ready, and hope to see more developer notes in the underscore framework. Thanks.

      • eburnett 8:39 pm on April 30, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

        Nice…disregard comments regarding m4a – apparently this is on my end. Wasn’t working on my test server – only when I converted over to mp3 could I upload. I loaded up beta over on my host and it’s working there, thanks.

    • francesdath 9:19 am on May 3, 2013 Permalink | Log in to Reply

      Also late to the party and delurking here, not sure if this is the right place for this, but. A couple of minor things I’ve noticed while using 3.6 dev (no particular order):

      If I add audio or video file, I can’t then remove it. Or can I? I don’t see any obvious ‘x’ icon like on an image in Visual mode.

      Video placeholder image. I’ve been using custom fields for video for a long time (with mediaelements or Flowplayer), and always added a placeholder image to avoid having an empty black player showing which doesn’t provide any clue as to the video content. Possibly too many steps for simplicity in Post Formats, but I think it could be good.

      Having an option for uploading subtitles with the video might be good.

      Enabling/disabling some or all post formats. It seems for me that the all new post formats icons show irrespectively of declarations in functions.php. I’ve been using Crowd Favourites’ plugin for a while and like that only the ones I’ve included appear. I think this for themes that don’t support post formats and/or haven’t declared specific ones these should be hidden. Is this the way it’s supposed to work now, or am I doing something weird?

      Somehow I liked the icons more when they were smaller and didn’t stretch over the right sidebar. I think mainly as it is now feels slightly not as I’m used to seeing the division of these two areas.

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